Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

[icowden]

Your kids going to see ancient monuments thousands of miles away (in the narrow window of annual leave you have) justifies air travel?

Well, yes essentially. It's lovely to be in a world where you can take your children to see it's wonders and learn from them. Both of mine are currently doing textiles projects (for A-level and GCSE respectively) having spent the best part of 3 weeks on a holiday in Malaysia learning about Malaysian tribes and textiles, seeing the Bornean wildlife, enjoying the capital city and learning all about a country by going there. I would imagine it's an experience they won't forget, and I don't regret taking them on holiday there. The A-Level student has also been to New York to see various textiles exhibitions there - you can't really see textiles from a website or a photograph. She has also been to some domestic events such as fairy door making in the New Forest and a fantasy insects workshop.

When I was growing up we usually went to Wales or Devon, or to visit my nan and grandad wherever their narrowboat was. We were limited by money and my dad's autistic dislike of people and travel. I enjoyed those holidays but only really went abroad once with family before I met my wife. She on the other hand had been on a cruise down the Nile and seen the pyramids amongst many other things as her parents regularly took their children abroad.

 

[monkers]

Well, yes essentially. It's lovely to be in a world where you can take your children to see it's wonders and learn from them. Both of mine are currently doing textiles projects (for A-level and GCSE respectively) having spent the best part of 3 weeks on a holiday in Malaysia learning about Malaysian tribes and textiles, seeing the Bornean wildlife, enjoying the capital city and learning all about a country by going there. I would imagine it's an experience they won't forget, and I don't regret taking them on holiday there. The A-Level student has also been to New York to see various textiles exhibitions there - you can't really see textiles from a website or a photograph. She has also been to some domestic events such as fairy door making in the New Forest and a fantasy insects workshop.

When I was growing up we usually went to Wales or Devon, or to visit my nan and grandad wherever their narrowboat was. We were limited by money and my dad's autistic dislike of people and travel. I enjoyed those holidays but only really went abroad once with family before I met my wife. She on the other hand had been on a cruise down the Nile and seen the pyramids amongst many other things as her parents regularly took their children abroad.

Sorry, but my sympathy for your struggle paying VAT on school fees just waned a bit.

 

[matticus]

Sorry, but my sympathy for your struggle paying VAT on school fees just waned a bit.

But those extra school fees will have to come out of the Spring Pyramids Trip jar! Have you no heart Monkers??

 

[icowden]

Sorry, but my sympathy for your struggle paying VAT on school fees just waned a bit.

Can I win it back by telling you that it was a special holiday to celebrate our 20th Wedding Anniversary and planned for with the last re-mortgage as we had not anticipated Reeves ensuring that we needed to find £4k straight after Christmas with no notice and already having locked in the mortgage for 10 years due to Truss? (and also now being at maximum mortgage I can afford). The In-Laws paid for the New York trip as it was a school trip for A-Levels.

The good news for the environment is that next years holiday is likely to be Devon or Wales unless I win the lottery...

To be honest, Reeves would have caused a lot less complaint if she had just planned the timing better. The VAT implementation *should* have been announced to start at the beginning of the next academic year. Not announced in November and implemented in January.

 

[matticus]

The good news for the environment is that next years holiday is likely to be Devon or Wales unless I win the lottery...

Oh that is good news! Especially as I thought it was actually cheaper to holiday in Majorca ( based on this thread's posts) - guess I was misinformed 👍

 

[monkers]

Can I win it back by telling you that it was a special holiday to celebrate our 20th Wedding Anniversary and planned for with the last re-mortgage as we had not anticipated Reeves ensuring that we needed to find £4k straight after Christmas with no notice and already having locked in the mortgage for 10 years due to Truss? (and also now being at maximum mortgage I can afford). The In-Laws paid for the New York trip as it was a school trip for A-Levels.

Did I say ''waned a bit''. Well now it's evaporated!

Sincere congratulations on your wedding anniversary, and here's to many more of them.

Your financial affairs and decisions are your own, but when I hear somebody say, ''the last re-mortgage'' I gulp. When you say you need to find an extra £4k, that's rough, but you've been taking luxuries at the expense of the planet and re-mortgaging to do so. I don't want to make assumptions, but from what you say, but I feel you're caught in a rat race trap of living up to the expectations set by your wife's family.

Anyway, good luck.

I holiday domestically. It's important to get to know your own country before others (IMHO) and we've got some great cycling country.

 

[monkers]

But those extra school fees will have to come out of the Spring Pyramids Trip jar! Have you no heart Monkers??

Apparently I have, the doctor says it has long QT syndrome and I'm at risk of sudden death, but then that was a few years ago and I've huffed my way up a good few hills since on the Emonda.

 

[matticus]

Well, yes essentially. It's lovely to be in a world where you can take your children to see it's wonders and learn from them.

Yes! Thank the lord for cheap air travel!!!

 

[icowden]

Your financial affairs and decisions are your own, but when I hear somebody say, ''the last re-mortgage'' I gulp. When you say you need to find an extra £4k, that's rough, but you've been taking luxuries at the expense of the planet and re-mortgaging to do so.

Well sort of. The last mortgage was to pay school fees for Senior school and 6th form plus a bit over to buy a new front door and do the family bathroom which has been waiting 12 years for some TLC (it's the same decrepit bathroom as when we moved into the house). However - we then discussed redoing the honeymoon instead so we still have a front door that's falling to bits and a decrepit bathroom!

The point of course is that the financial outlay was planned (albeit quickly - thanks Liz) and should have taken us through to the eldest going to Uni which then leaves me to pay all bills and my wife to cover 6th form fees for one kid plus food, clothing etc. What most people in my position can't do, is just find extra money down the back of the sofa. At least if it had started in September I'd have had time to do things to earn some of the money.

But I digress. The broader point is that until you do something that affects the cheap availability (or not) of package holidays to the sun, air travel isn't going to decrease, and initiatives such as making it harder to go anywhere by leaving the EU really don't help.

 

[monkers]

Yes! Thank the lord for cheap air travel!!!

Some fifty seven years ago while at primary school, our class teacher gave each of us an 'acid drop' (which for any young folk here was just a sour-tasting boiled sweet) in a lesson about ph testing. He also half-jokingly said ''remember me in fifty years'' when you can make these from freezing rain water.

He also to took us on a coach trip to Heathrow to marvel at 'man's genius', tell us about the aerodynamics of lift, and warn us about the harm to the environment and climate. Now I hear that the schools have started teaching 'woke nonsense'. It seems my Mr Middleton was way ahead of his time.

 

[monkers]

Well sort of. The last mortgage was to pay school fees for Senior school and 6th form plus a bit over to buy a new front door and do the family bathroom which has been waiting 12 years for some TLC (it's the same decrepit bathroom as when we moved into the house). However - we then discussed redoing the honeymoon instead so we still have a front door that's falling to bits and a decrepit bathroom!

The point of course is that the financial outlay was planned (albeit quickly - thanks Liz) and should have taken us through to the eldest going to Uni which then leaves me to pay all bills and my wife to cover 6th form fees for one kid plus food, clothing etc. What most people in my position can't do, is just find extra money down the back of the sofa. At least if it had started in September I'd have had time to do things to earn some of the money.

But I digress. The broader point is that until you do something that affects the cheap availability (or not) of package holidays to the sun, air travel isn't going to decrease, and initiatives such as making it harder to go anywhere by leaving the EU really don't help.

You really don't need to explain your financial decisions to anyone else; they truly are a matter for you.

On the other hand, you can't explain away the air travel away any more than other person can, because you clearly know the consequences, and you've taken decisions. I'm rather too dogmatic about this perhaps, but the reasons aren't justifications. As air travel is an environmental concern, you'll have to expect to receive criticism for it.

Taxation serves one of two purposes, although I guess a third way hybrid is arguable. Tax is either about raising money for public spending, or it is about behaviour modification. The latter can be punitive or rewarding. Tax has been in a punitive sense to discourage smoking, alcohol consumption, and we've even had a sugar tax. ISAs were an inducement to save a small amount.

My own position is that air pollution can rarely be justified. Some will argue that the polluter must pay. That might make sense if the revenue helps to tackle air pollution, but that is not happening.

The tax situation on air travel is not that is not that is not punitive but that it is rewarding. Aircraft fuel is taxed less than road fuel. Air travel is encouraged by the determination to build more infrastructure, more runways and more airport infrastructure.

What we need to teaching our children is that the way humans currently treat the planet is not sustainable.

Sorry if my opinions don't sit well with you. I'm not enjoying embarrassing you. But I can't not say that this needs to stop.

 

[Psamathe]

He also to took us on a coach trip to Heathrow to marvel at 'man's genius', tell us about the aerodynamics of lift, and warn us about the harm to the environment and climate. Now I hear that the schools have started teaching 'woke nonsense'. It seems my Mr Middleton was way ahead of his time.

Not unique to Climate Change. I remember at school "winning" a book "Limits to Growth" highlighting our excessive consumption of Earth's resources. I remember through my education being taught about how human excessive use and misuse of antibiotics would result in antibiotic resistance and a crucial medication would become less and less effective. I'm late 60s now.

To me it highlights how so many of these challenges we are facing have been recognised for years and years and the solutions have been known and available for years eg for antibiotics stop overuse, stop "preventative" use, stop regular dosing healthy farm animals. No need to develop or invent some new technology.

Makes you wonder if such a stupid species has a long term future.

Ian

 

[icowden]

The tax situation on air travel is not that is not that is not punitive but that it is rewarding. Aircraft fuel is taxed less than road fuel. Air travel is encouraged by the determination to build more infrastructure, more runways and more airport infrastructure.

What we need to teaching our children is that the way humans currently treat the planet is not sustainable.
Sorry if my opinions don't sit well with you. I'm not enjoying embarrassing you. But I can't not say that this needs to stop.

Actually I agree with you on all of the above. The other element of this is that we need to be channelling more money into research budgets so that rather than just taxing and reducing air travel, we can keep air travel but do it more cleanly. We have seen what can be achieved with battery tech in a relatively short period of time just because there is demand. Research is now trying to find ways of making batteries lighter, more powerful, increase storage, reduce charging time and use fewer rare earth materials.

Sadly we now have the USA heading for a rampage to burn more oil and gas than every before and sod the environment.

 

[Psamathe]

The tax situation on air travel is not that is not that is not punitive but that it is rewarding. Aircraft fuel is taxed less than road fuel.
Quite a few reports about the amount of money Ms Reeves could have raised in her budget from taxing air fuel properly (and it was a significant amount)
eg

Jet fuel tax could raise £6bn a year in the UK, says thinktank
Campaigners have urged the chancellor to start taxing jet fuel – with a report showing that charging duty at the same rate paid by motorists would raise up to £6bn a year for the public finances.
(from https://www.theguardian.com/busines...uld-raise-6bn-a-year-in-the-uk-says-thinktank)

or

Superyacht and private jet tax could raise £2bn a year, say campaigners
Fair taxes on superyachts and private jets in the UK could have brought in £2bn last year to provide vital funds for communities suffering the worst effects of climate breakdown, campaigners say.
(from https://www.theguardian.com/busines...uld-raise-6bn-a-year-in-the-uk-says-thinktank)

But then she also didn't take the opoortunity to raise nearly £1bn from online casinos (https://www.theguardian.com/society...opportunity-to-raise-900m-from-online-casinos)

So many missed opportunities to raise taxes that would have helped society as well! Something that has increased my disappointment with Labour even further.

Ian

 

[matticus]

The broader point is that until you do something that affects the cheap availability (or not) of package holidays to the sun, air travel isn't going to decrease, and initiatives such as making it harder to go anywhere by leaving the EU really don't help

It's a very easy trend to beat - just don't fly!

Billions of people have managed just this, despite the disadvantage of less education than you were privileged with. Why do you find it so hard? Why all the excuses? (and criticising the USA at the same time !! )