Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

[icowden]

Tyre particles are transitioning to becoming the main vehicle pollution with current EVs increasing this in a very heavy way.

Nope. That's pretty much a myth.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electri...ore-tyre-and-brake-pollution-than-petrol-and/

 

[icowden]

The manufacturing of an EV is much more environmentally damaging - I've seen figures of between 15% and 68% more than ICE cars, depending on the size of the vehicle. If you change your vehicle regularly (every 3 years is common) you're not being remotely 'green'.

The figures are making a lot of assumptions. Firstly and foremost, the main difference between building an ICE car (non-hybrid) and an EV is the battery. Most of the figures out there make the assumption that the battery will not be recycled. Recycling and battery development will make EVs greener as time goes by.

This may shock you but petrol cars weren't very efficient for the first 20 years or so, but engines have become much more efficient over time. The same will be true for EVs. In 20 years time, I doubt that we will need a tonne of battery at the bottom of the car.

EVs aren't perfect but they are better than ICE cars. So if you need a car, that's the way to go. The ultimate aim will be for EVs to drive themselves which in turn allows for a huge reduction in the number of needed vehicles as well as re-wilding of areas (e.g. parking by houses) that are no longer needed.

 

[Milzy]

The manufacturing of an EV is much more environmentally damaging - I've seen figures of between 15% and 68% more than ICE cars, depending on the size of the vehicle. If you change your vehicle regularly (every 3 years is common) you're not being remotely 'green'.

Exactly. Almost went EV. Have a 1.0 litre petrol coming instead. Greener and not a silly big SUV or 4x4 with high co2.
Even people with bigger engines if they’ve kept the same car for 15 years well maintained then it’s greener than changing an EV more often. Even Debbie from dragons Den keeps her old car and she’s a multimillionaire. We need more people like her.

 

[icowden]

Exactly. Almost went EV. Have a 1.0 litre petrol coming instead. Greener and not a silly big SUV or 4x4 with high co2.

Not greener. Far more damaging. It burns fossil fuels and releases Co2. If you were that concerned then a second hand leaf would have been ideal.

Even people with bigger engines if they’ve kept the same car for 15 years well maintained then it’s greener than changing an EV more often. Even Debbie from dragons Den keeps her old car and she’s a multimillionaire. We need more people like her.

By Debbie do you mean this Deborah Meaden who drives an EV?:

Deborah Meaden​

Environmental activist Deborah has been in the den since 2003. Recently she has operated a plant-based diet and now drives an electric car - the BMW i3. The BMW i3 is an all electric car that has a range of around 124 miles. It's not on the same level as Tesla yet, but for city driving, which we can assume business mogul Meaden does a lot of, it's perfect. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than a Tesla.

 

[Ian H]

This may shock you but petrol cars weren't very efficient for the first 20 years or so, but engines have become much more efficient over time.

I must admit I haven't noticed my car becoming more efficient as it ages.
The only answer is smaller cars, fewer of them, and with more restrictions on their use. This goes hand-in-hand with better public transport.

 

[BoldonLad]

And these aren't present in your ICE car, your computer or your mobile phone? That we are using resources and failing to recycle is an issue but it is not one that can be solely parked at the door of EVs.

I didn't say it was, I said, EV's were not zero pollution.

So naturally everyone should just give up trying to save the planet.


Modern slavery is not the sole province of EVs. That you are posting here suggests you are complicit in dodgy mining etc. EVs do not pollute. They only use power available in the Grid which can be entirely green if we try hard enough.

It would appear I am not alone in this view:

Tyre particles are transitioning to becoming the main vehicle pollution with current EVs increasing this in a very heavy way.

The manufacturing of an EV is much more environmentally damaging - I've seen figures of between 15% and 68% more than ICE cars, depending on the size of the vehicle. If you change your vehicle regularly (every 3 years is common) you're not being remotely 'green'.

 

[BoldonLad]

The figures are making a lot of assumptions. Firstly and foremost, the main difference between building an ICE car (non-hybrid) and an EV is the battery. Most of the figures out there make the assumption that the battery will not be recycled. Recycling and battery development will make EVs greener as time goes by.

This may shock you but petrol cars weren't very efficient for the first 20 years or so, but engines have become much more efficient over time. The same will be true for EVs. In 20 years time, I doubt that we will need a tonne of battery at the bottom of the car.

EVs aren't perfect but they are better than ICE cars. So if you need a car, that's the way to go. The ultimate aim will be for EVs to drive themselves which in turn allows for a huge reduction in the number of needed vehicles as well as re-wilding of areas (e.g. parking by houses) that are no longer needed.

Lot of "will be" there, I thought there was some urgency to this problem?

 

[matticus]

E-bikes: even if the batteries pollute, at least they are orders of magnitude smaller than car batteries.
We'd probably be better letting people keep their ICE vehicles; restrict their use; and encourage/enable journies by foot/e-bike/bus/tram/train.
(The Dutch own shoot-loads of cars, but use them with discretion.)

 

[Milzy]

Not greener. Far more damaging. It burns fossil fuels and releases Co2. If you were that concerned then a second hand leaf would have been ideal.

By Debbie do you mean this Deborah Meaden who drives an EV?:

She’s changed. Happy for her.

 

[albion]

Nope. That's pretty much a myth.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electri...ore-tyre-and-brake-pollution-than-petrol-and/

No mention of myth there.
https://cycleways.org.uk/2023/02/28...es-causing-increasing-concern-say-scientists/
As to brake pad debris, the Rac is pinning hopes on regenerative braking reducing the need for brake pad use.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electri...ore-tyre-and-brake-pollution-than-petrol-and/
That does little for tyre pollution.

 

[icowden]

No mention of myth there.
https://cycleways.org.uk/2023/02/28...es-causing-increasing-concern-say-scientists/

Nor of EVs which are better on tyre wear than ICE cars. All cars shed tyre particulate matter.

As to brake pad debris, the Rac is pinning hopes on regenerative braking reducing the need for brake pad use.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electri...ore-tyre-and-brake-pollution-than-petrol-and/
That does little for tyre pollution.

Why would brakes fix tyre pollution. The fact is that an EV rarely uses the brake pads and wears them out much less than an ICE car. So again an EV is better than an ICE.

Neither is better than walking or a bicycle.

 

[matticus]

Nor of EVs which are better on tyre wear than ICE cars

Is that a thing? I ask purely out of curiosity, as I think EVs are slightly better than ICE, but ain't gonna save the world and really are an excuse for folks to keep driving to the airport with a clear conscience.

 

[icowden]

Is that a thing? I ask purely out of curiosity, as I think EVs are slightly better than ICE, but ain't gonna save the world and really are an excuse for folks to keep driving to the airport with a clear conscience.

It's a thing to those desperately trying to find things wrong with EVs. All cars have tyre wear. EV tyres are better constructed and tend to last longer.

 

[albion]

Shedding of tyre particles is certainly proportional to the weight of a car.

A light short range car that charges in a few minutes, is hydrogen us the way to go. Lithium titanate type batteries are also hitting micro cars in Japan and soon yo be be big in ebikes and scooters.

However, cars themselves, not just EVs are a desperate world problem

 

[Milzy]

No a second hand leaf is not for me. I don’t even do many miles, easily below average infact. The leaf will have created a lot of co2 to produce. EV’s will NEVER be the silver bullet. The grid couldn’t cope if we all changed in a short space of time. Milk floats were brilliantly adequate electric but they’ve been using DERV Ford transits for many years. Also in professional cycling the cars and bikes are not even electric, driving 200km stages often they’ll be polluting more than F1. Shameful.