Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

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Well, I was riffing on Snak’s non-existent meat tax, but actually I do think we could discourage the worst excesses of industrial meat extraction through progressive taxes that reflect the true costs of production.
Where have i heard that before? oh yeah, single use bags, sugar tax,ulez etc.(wich lead to you can ignore all rules if you can afford to pay them.) to problem with that system is that it rewards those on top of the chain or better said those already f*cking rich and disadvantages those who are already struggling
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
I challenge you to prove with facts and numbers that we have enough worldwide capacity to replace meat with vegan alternatives. and that it is still better for the environment

Here's some facts and numbers:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w
 
it's not about the uk it's worldwide, i asked @albion to show that worldwide switch to from meat to alternatives would actually be better for the environment and possible.(edit with possible i mean technically possible, so enough farmland etc.) (apart from the fact that's it very hard to enforce it but pure at a hypothetical point of view.)
 
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Where have i heard that before? oh yeah, single use bags, sugar tax,ulez etc.(wich lead to you can ignore all rules if you can afford to pay them.) to problem with that system is that it rewards those on top of the chain or better said those already f*cking rich and disadvantages those who are already struggling

I'd tax the producer as well as the consumer. Done right (and no, I don't have a full manifesto, but others do) I believe it would make sustainable food production more profitable than extractive "farming".
 

the snail

Active Member
it's not about the uk it's worldwide, i asked @albion to show that worldwide switch to from meat to alternatives would actually be better for the environment and possible.(edit with possible i mean technically possible, so enough farmland etc.) (apart from the fact that's it very hard to enforce it but pure at a hypothetical point of view.)

In an industrialised system it is fairly obvious that growing soya then feeding it to cattle is going to be less efficient than just eating the soya, so you could feed a lot more people by growing plant-based foods with the same amount of land.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat-and-dairy-production
 

bobzmyunkle

Senior Member
Where have i heard that before? oh yeah, single use bags, sugar tax,ulez etc.(wich lead to you can ignore all rules if you can afford to pay them.) to problem with that system is that it rewards those on top of the chain or better said those already f*cking rich and disadvantages those who are already struggling
@dutchguylivingintheuk spreads his ray of sunshine across yet another thread.
 
I'd tax the producer as well as the consumer. Done right (and no, I don't have a full manifesto, but others do) I believe it would make sustainable food production more profitable than extractive "farming".
Taxes just make the consumer pay twice, once for the meat-tax your suggest to introduce, secondly for the tax the producer gets and charges back to the consumer via price hikes.
Thus my original point still stands.
Taxes don't really work anymore if you want a new approach, big companies have lots of lawyers etc. who even if the law say they are not allowed will still find way to screw consumers over.
I posted this before but in the Netherland for example some farmers have setup the website/company koopeenkoe (buy an cow) years ago which allows people to buy their meat directly from farmers with as addition extra that the cow only is slaughtered when all the meat has been sold.
So that is an example of something that could work, without using the old fashion tax system.


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/13/meat-greenhouses-gases-food-production-study
'Meat accounts for nearly 60% of all greenhouse gases from food production, study finds'
1. based on the current (inefficient way of producing most meat) 2. That wasn't the question, the question is look at all the ingredients you need to make vegan food, look at the total world population and look at the available land for agriculture, the hypothetical question is can it even be done? i'm highly skeptical to be honest.

In an industrialised system it is fairly obvious that growing soya then feeding it to cattle is going to be less efficient than just eating the soya, so you could feed a lot more people by growing plant-based foods with the same amount of land.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat-and-dairy-production
yes but that was not the question, the question is if you would somehow outlaw and be able to enforce no-one eating meat, would you have enough land to actually produce the alternatives for the whole world population.
The question of correctly compensating the nutrition value is the next one. (but evenly important if you really want to make an honest comparison)
 

mudsticks

Squire
I don't disbelieve you at all, but you know how the world works....

Well I know how the current food system generally disfunctions, and works against health, environment and overall well-being yes for sure.


That doesn't mean we can't transition intelligently towards much better.

In an industrialised system it is fairly obvious that growing soya then feeding it to cattle is going to be less efficient than just eating the soya, so you could feed a lot more people by growing plant-based foods with the same amount of land.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat-and-dairy-production

But that doesn't argue for 'banning meat' even if 'banning' it were possible.
Who would police this ban anyway ??

Yes transitioning away from industrialised animal raising for sure..


The general level of awareness and understanding of how agriculture and the food system works (and also doesn't) is pretty low.

The complexity of interactions between soil type, aspect, climate, ecosystems below ground and above - including the animals and humans within the system working eating and excreting is immense - and needs to be far better recognised.

Rather than making 'broad brush' simplistic pronouncements such as 'ban meat'.

Saying it takes less land to grow X amount of say a protein crop such as soya than to pasture raise a lamb to generate a similar amount of protein - so therefore we should 'ban meat' completely discounts the fact that there are many environments where you can raise one or the other, but not both.

But at the same time there are other environments where doing both alongside each other as part of a mixed system where for example sheep graze off the aftermath of a crop and boost the subsequent fertility and depth of soil means that in that scenario the sum of the total becomes greater than the sum of the parts because of the interaction of natural ecological systems.

Continuous arable (growing only plant foods) with no grazing animal or ley (grassland) breaks leads to soil erosion (carbon loss) and depleted fertility..
In addition to using vast quantities of fossil fuel inputs to substitute for natural nutrient recycling.
Remember the US dust bowls ?? Where removing the natural herbivore grazers (bison) and stripping the natural fertility built up by extracting successive arable crops led to the loss of millions of tonnes of topsoil.
- Industrialised agriculture still does that today and not only in pursuit of growing feed crops for animals.

Food production if it is to be sustainable has to take in to account all the localised ecosystem elements, and the health and wellbeing of the humans eating and living there too.

Presently we also have massive amounts of wastage in the system which has a massive carbon load too - that needs tackling also.

And its not that we don't already produce excessive calories in our commodified systems - the health consequences of those excesses - obesity, diabetes, increased cancer risk etc have now outstripped the health impacts of calorie deficit worldwide.

Anyhoo up - same old same old - time to go do todays .. harvest >>🌱🥕🍎🥬🥔🧄🌰🌱🌱🌱
 

the snail

Active Member
...

But that doesn't argue for 'banning meat' even if 'banning' it were possible.
Who would police this ban anyway ??

Yes transitioning away from industrialised animal raising for sure..


...

Well I didn't suggest banning meat, I was responding to dutchb**ches question. I suspect that when we had a more sustainable farming industry (maybe 200 years ago?) meat was more of a luxury - if you look at subsistence farmers, they don't tend to slaughter animals as a matter of course, because they are too valuable to them. I suspect that like the motor car, it will be a very tough ask to wean them off cheap meat. Perhaps we will end up eating protein made by bacteria, or feeding it to livestock
 

matticus

Guru
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-of-causing-criminal-damage-to-hsbc-london-hq

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