Does anybody here take the Greens seriously?

[Psamathe]

Though, to be fair, if I upped my consumption of some of the foods low down on that list, my personal methane production would increase substantially.

Although other considerations beyond climate gas emissions eg land use, water use, biodiversity, etc.

 

[briantrumpet]

Although other considerations beyond climate gas emissions eg land use, water use, biodiversity, etc.

The beef thing is also making assumptions about the type of land being used for its production and intensiveness of production.

 

[BoldonLad]

Infrastructure, capital projects - things that make the economy more efficient, which have the effect of lowering the effective cost of borrowing.

Like HS2, for example?

Edit: See Shortfall beat me to it 😊

 

[BoldonLad]

Straight greens.

View attachment 15479

Some of them don't look perfectly straight to me, worse still, some of them bend to the right 😂

 

[briantrumpet]

Like HS2, for example?

Edit: See Shortfall beat me to it 😊

Slight counterexample: Crossrail. Yes, late and over budget (though nowhere near the same league as HS2), but absolutely wildly successful now. It's interesting reading this 2022 BBC report: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61409591

 

[Ian H]

Like HS2, for example?

Edit: See Shortfall beat me to it 😊

One swallow doesn't mean you choke on every bite.
[Confucious]

 

[briantrumpet]

One swallow doesn't mean you choke on every bite.

Depends how the swallows have been cooked and how well you chew them.

 

[Shortfall]

One swallow doesn't mean you choke on every bite.
[Confucious]

True, but a quick Google gave me plenty of other examples including the NHS IT project in 2013 that was abandoned after 7 years, cost over £10 billion and only delivered a fraction of the promised services, the West Coast Mainline upgrade where budget soared from an estimated £2.1 billion to over £10 billion, contributing directly to Railtrack's bankruptcy, or more topically the Scottish Parliament building in Holyrood that went from initial estimates of £40 million in 1997 to an ventual£414 million.

 

[briantrumpet]

True, but a quick Google gave me plenty of other examples including the NHS IT project in 2013 that was abandoned after 7 years, cost over £10 billion and only delivered a fraction of the promised services, the West Coast Mainline upgrade where budget soared from an estimated £2.1 billion to over £10 billion, contributing directly to Railtrack's bankruptcy, or more topically the Scottish Parliament building in Holyrood that went from initial estimates of £40 million in 1997 to an ventual£414 million.

Looks like it's not a uniquely UK problem though. (Apologies, Gemini, as you can tell by the formatting.)

Germany has a world-famous reputation for precision engineering, but when it comes to massive public infrastructure, it has suffered from some spectacularly expensive and heavily delayed projects. The biggest and most notorious examples of German "megaprojects" that went drastically over budget and blew past their schedules include:

1. Berlin Brandenburg Airport (BER)​

Arguably the most famous construction debacle in modern European history, the "Willy Brandt" airport became a running national joke. It was supposed to showcase unified Berlin's modern infrastructure, but instead became a textbook case of project mismanagement.

• Original Budget: €2.0 billion
• Final Cost: Over €7.3 billion
• Original Opening Date: 2011
• Actual Opening Date: October 2020 (9 years late)

What went wrong?​

Construction began in 2006. Just weeks before its grand opening in 2012, inspectors realized the smoke extraction and fire safety system was completely non-functional. Instead of a localized fix, it uncovered a domino effect of structural errors: thousands of lightbulbs they couldn't figure out how to turn off, automatic doors without power, and cable conduits packed too tightly that posed fire risks. Ultimately, large parts of the interior had to be entirely gutted and rebuilt.

2. Elbphilharmonie, Hamburg​

This stunning, wave-like concert hall sitting on top of an old brick warehouse is now a beloved architectural icon of Hamburg. However, its birth was incredibly painful for German taxpayers.

• Original Budget: €77 million (public share)
• Final Cost: €866 million (nearly an 1,100% increase)
• Original Opening Date: 2010
• Actual Opening Date: January 2017 (7 years late)

What went wrong?​

The project suffered from a toxic cocktail of overly ambitious architecture and political rushing. The city signed a contract with the construction company before the complex architectural planning by Swiss firm Herzog & de Meuron was even fully finished. Disputes over who would pay for the necessary structural changes led to legal battles, and construction ground to a complete halt for nearly a year in 2011.

3. Stuttgart 21 (S21)​

This massive railway and urban development project aims to transform the Stuttgart main train station from a historic terminal station into an ultra-modern, underground "through-station" to speed up European transit times.

• Original Budget: €2.5 billion
• Estimated Final Cost: Expected to surpass €11.5 billion
• Original Opening Date: 2008
• Current Status: Still under construction (targeted for late 2025 or 2026)

What went wrong?​

Stuttgart 21 has faced immense public backlash, sparking huge protests from locals who lamented the destruction of parts of the old historic station and a beloved city park. Aside from politics, the engineering itself is notoriously difficult. Workers have had to tunnel miles through highly unstable, water-bearing anhydrite rock, which swells dramatically when it comes into contact with water, causing severe structural risks and massive budgetary creep.

4. Cologne Opera House Renovation​

Megaprojects aren't the only ones that run into trouble; major renovations do too. Cologne’s iconic mid-century opera house and theater complex closed down in 2012 for what was supposed to be a straightforward three-year modernization project.

• Original Budget: €250 million
• Estimated Final Cost: Approaching €1 billion
• Original Reopening Date: 2015
• Current Status: Still a construction site (targeted for late 2024 to late 2026)

What went wrong?​

Similar to Berlin's airport, the project was derailed by incredibly complex and poorly coordinated building services. With 58 different companies across 72 trades trying to squeeze modern ventilation, fire protection, and digital stage technology into a rigid 1950s concrete structure, the building's technical infrastructure essentially turned into an unresolvable knot.

Summary Table​

Project	Sector	Initial Cost	Actual/Estimated Cost	Delay
Berlin Airport (BER)	Aviation	€2.0B	€7.3B	9 Years
Elbphilharmonie	Culture/Building	€77M	€866M	7 Years
Stuttgart 21	Rail Transit	€2.5B	€11.5B+	~17 Years
Cologne Opera House	Renovation	€250M	~€1.0B	9+ Years

The Root Cause: Studies by economic think-tanks (like the Hertie School of Governance) show that German public procurement laws often force the government to accept the lowest bidder. This incentivizes companies to unrealistically underestimate initial costs to win the contract, knowing they can later file "change requests" that drive up the price once the project is too far along to cancel.

 

[BoldonLad]

Slight counterexample: Crossrail. Yes, late and over budget (though nowhere near the same league as HS2), but absolutely wildly successful now. It's interesting reading this 2022 BBC report: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61409591

Could this be a "one swallow" as below?

One swallow doesn't mean you choke on every bite.
[Confucious]

Shortfall has highlighted a few more "swallows", elsewhere we could also add the Edinburgh Tram System, The Scottish Island Ferries, no doubt there are more

Looks like it's not a uniquely UK problem though. (Apologies, Gemini, as you can tell by the formatting.)

Personally, I never thought it was a uniquely UK problem, it is a Government problem, regardless of party, and, frequently, regardless of nationality.

 

[Pblakeney]

Personally, I never thought it was a uniquely UK problem, it is a Government problem, regardless of party, and, frequently, regardless of nationality.

I think it is a tendering problem. You quote, you win, you build. Got your quote wrong? Tough.
No doubt the first few projects would still go wrong but the message would soon sink in. Higher initial quotes but cheaper in the long run.

 

[briantrumpet]

Happily, I couldn't find any recipes for feathered swallows, but Nigerian 'swallows' are a well-known thing, apparently. Kind of doughboys, I guess.

https://afrifoodnetwork.com/articles/popular-nigerian-swallow/

 

[BoldonLad]

I think it is a tendering problem. You quote, you win, you build. Got your quote wrong? Tough.
No doubt the first few projects would still go wrong but the message would soon sink in. Higher initial quotes but cheaper in the long run.

I did, during my working life, spend some time working for a Civil Engineering company (now defunct, I believe, which may be relevant, although, they were involved in some very big projects). Their technique appeared to be to quote low, and then, "make" on the "extras" and "variations" which inevitably occurred because the client specification of requirements was, shall we say, 'less than complete".

Not Civil Engineering, but, I believe Suppliers to MoD follow a similar practice. MoD are, as we all know, experts at budget overruns.

 

[Pblakeney]

I did, during my working life, spend some time working for a Civil Engineering company (now defunct, I believe, which may be relevant, although, they were involved in some very big projects). Their technique appeared to be to quote low, and then, "make" on the "extras" and "variations" which inevitably occurred because the client specification of requirements was, shall we say, 'less than complete".

Not Civil Engineering, but, I believe Suppliers to MoD follow a similar practice. MoD are, as we all know, experts at budget overruns.

Happens in all industries. If it is permitted/poor contracts/poor specs.
Some companies I've had dealings with had entire teams devoted to finding contractural holes to exploit.

 

[Ian H]

Happily, I couldn't find any recipes for feathered swallows, but Nigerian 'swallows' are a well-known thing, apparently. Kind of doughboys, I guess.

https://afrifoodnetwork.com/articles/popular-nigerian-swallow/

I rode a few Paris-Brests but never ate one until recently, and in Devon.