EU & Brexit Bunker

[BoldonLad]

You asked the question, I answered it.

You might not like the figures in the poll, but even if you don't trust opinion polls, the shift in sentiment over time doesn't suggest that people don't give a FF any more, which was the contention.

As I have already said, I think, on this occasion, @Stevo 666 , is correct.

As a remain voter, I may not like that, but, that does no mean it is not so.

I cannot recall the last time I even heard anyone mention the referendum, let along express regret.

There is some evidence that a little more than 2,000 people have voted Reform, in various REAL polls, I doubt they are regretting voting "leave", and, I doubt the daily "rubber boat" figures are endearing the EU/France to them.

I am not a Reform voter, by the way.

 

[briantrumpet]

Of course, a responsible government won't just respond to things that the public are being vocal about at any one time, in any case. Even if people aren't very engaged with a particular subject, even if it does have ramifications for the UK, it's still the government's responsibility to address the subject.

The relationship with the EU will never not have an effect on the UK's economy, so even if the population say they don't give a FF (their fúcks, flying or otherwise, largely being led by the whims of the media), the government should be addressing the issue.

 

[Stevo 666]

As I have already said, I think, on this occasion, @Stevo 666 , is correct.

As a remain voter, I may not like that, but, that does no mean it is not so.

I cannot recall the last time I even heard anyone mention the referendum, let along express regret.

There is some evidence that a little more than 2,000 people have voted Reform, in various REAL polls, I doubt they are regretting voting "leave", and, I doubt the daily "rubber boat" figures are endearing the EU/France to them.

I am not a Reform voter, by the way.

I suppose the thread title which includes the word 'Bunker' is quite appropriate. I can imagine one of those 'Hitler rant' spoofs with Adolf in his Berlin bunker ranting that 'People do still care about Brexit!' when the reality outside is rather different 🙂

 

[Stevo 666]

And by pure coincidence, meet 'Adolftrumpet'

View: https://youtu.be/cIhuVJQ7wzc?si=Ap5LGNVV_AGGj17S

 

[icowden]

Enough, thanks. I don't hear anyone whining about it apart from on obscure cycling forums.

How active are you in the farming and fishing communities? Are you a member of many economic forums?
How many touring musician groups do you frequent? Are you also busy in the student community?
What about the energy sector - are you involved in those forums too?

Or

Is it just possible that you are only hearing people "whine" about it on obscure cycling forums because that is where you go for conversation?

 

[spen666]

So just discussing something means you are 'obsessed'? There's no point in burying your head in the sand and ignoring the damage brexit has caused, and people should be informed about it. The pro-brexit campaign was pretty negative, telling us how awful the EU and foreigners are.
Yes, if you fall into a hole, what's the point in trying to get out. You should just try and make the best of your new life in the hole. You can't un-crash the plane,but brexit could be reversed.

Brexit has happened, you are not going to change that by bemoaning what has happened. You cannot change the past.

You can change the future though. That is where we need to concentrate on. If you think the best future is to rejoin the EU, then campaign for it and help bring it about.

Moaning about the past is not going to help you or anyone. Look to the future and affect change

 

[spen666]

One aspect of the Brexit Referendum I feel hasn't and should be debated far more is the necessary majority for issues of major or constitutional significance, maybe even in Westminster as well as for referendums.

Should issues of such massive long term binding significance be based on a simple majority where a 50:50 less one vote could cause a change. Should we be requiring a more significant margin to pass for such a change?

It's complex as not only does one have to consider the majority vs margin what also what constitutes a major change requiring an larger margin. Certainly some changes have binding impact far longer term than the current Government which might be a start point for requiring a larger margin for change.

Ian

So, democracy now means ignoring the wishes of the majority in a yes / no vote?

We give more credence to the votes of those who are in the minority than the majority?. Not sure that works

 

[BoldonLad]

Of course, a responsible government won't just respond to things that the public are being vocal about at any one time, in any case. Even if people aren't very engaged with a particular subject, even if it does have ramifications for the UK, it's still the government's responsibility to address the subject.

The relationship with the EU will never not have an effect on the UK's economy, so even if the population say they don't give a FF (their fúcks, flying or otherwise, largely being led by the whims of the media), the government should be addressing the issue.

Now, on that, we are in agreement 🙂

 

[Psamathe]

So, democracy now means ignoring the wishes of the majority in a yes / no vote?

There is a big difference between "Democracy" and "Tyranny of the Majority". We are a society and a society protects the interests of all and does not allow the majority interests to repress minority interests. And a supermajority is not uncommon in democratic rule.

Setting a margin does not mean ignoring the majority. eg say "Do you want to leave the EU?" it's a change from being a member to not being a member and so we might require 50% of the electorate say "Yes we want to leave". Just 50% of those voting is not the same as 50% of the electorate.

Ian

 

[icowden]

So, democracy now means ignoring the wishes of the majority in a yes / no vote?

Yes. The way it works is like this.

You ask the population what they want. They vote for a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.

However...
If you ask them what they want as regards Europe in 1975 you absolutely should never ask the people again.
Asking them again 40 years later is a terrible thing. But we did it anyway. In spite of the verdict being void due to breaches of electoral law and only being advisory, not binding and not being a significant majority decision, the Govt acted on it anyway.
But of course asking the people again, another 10 years later given the very adverse effects on the UK is an abolute no no and anti-democratic

 

[BoldonLad]

Yes. The way it works is like this.

You ask the population what they want. They vote for a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Conservative Government.
5 years later you ask again. They want a Labour Government.

However...
If you ask them what they want as regards Europe in 1975 you absolutely should never ask the people again.
Asking them again 40 years later is a terrible thing. But we did it anyway. In spite of the verdict being void due to breaches of electoral law and only being advisory, not binding and not being a significant majority decision, the Govt acted on it anyway.
But of course asking the people again, another 10 years later given the very adverse effects on the UK is an abolute no no and anti-democratic

Most, if not all, Governments in my life time have not had a 50%+ share of the Poll, let alone a 50%+ share of the electorate. Again, in my lifetime, no General Election has been a binary choice.

 

[icowden]

Most, if not all, Governments in my life time have not had a 50%+ share of the Poll, let alone a 50%+ share of the electorate. Again, in my lifetime, no General Election has been a binary choice.

Do you not live in the UK?

 

[Psamathe]

Most, if not all, Governments in my life time have not had a 50%+ share of the Poll, let alone a 50%+ share of the electorate. Again, in my lifetime, no General Election has been a binary choice.

In many ways Brexit wasn't a binary choice, just that the question people voted on did not actually ask them what they sought. So the answer the electorate gave was no real answer.

ie Remain vs hard Brexit vs soft Brexit, etc. (or maybe other divisions). and just "hard" vs "soft" Brexit are very very different options and would get very different support in a referendum.

Given the widespread and massive impacts I don't think the electorate had much of a say. I do know a few people who voted leave and they all say we didn't get the sort of Leave they voted for (which could be "buyers remorse" or genuine 'cos they believes some leave campaigning politicians and ignored other leave campaigning politicians).

Ian

 

[BoldonLad]

In many ways Brexit wasn't a binary choice, just that the question people voted on did not actually ask them what they sought. So the answer the electorate gave was no real answer.

ie Remain vs hard Brexit vs soft Brexit, etc. (or maybe other divisions). and just "hard" vs "soft" Brexit are very very different options and would get very different support in a referendum.

Given the widespread and massive impacts I don't think the electorate had much of a say. I do know a few people who voted leave and they all say we didn't get the sort of Leave they voted for (which could be "buyers remorse" or genuine 'cos they believes some leave campaigning politicians and ignored other leave campaigning politicians).

Ian

It was a binary choice in that the choice was Remain/Leave, I agree, the consequences of the choice were not binary. But, on the ballot paper, there were only two boxes.

 

[BoldonLad]

Do you not live in the UK?

You know I do, so:

Tell me which General Elections did the winner have more than 50% of the votes cast?

Tell me which General Election only had a choice of two parties?

Edit: my lifetime began 1947, and, so far, has lasted until 2025.