EU & Brexit Bunker

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PurplePenguin

Über Member
There's something special here about the language Dunt uses in his post about the Pope. And you won't be confused why I've put this here... not sure I'd quite phrase it like that, but...

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The most alarming thing is the way that some people actually believe this. The same people will become outraged over the idea of the UK deporting refugees to Rwanda whilst wildly cheering when the EU comes up with a plan to deport refugees to.. Rwanda. It must be a good idea when the EU does it.
 

C R

Legendary Member
The most alarming thing is the way that some people actually believe this. The same people will become outraged over the idea of the UK deporting refugees to Rwanda whilst wildly cheering when the EU comes up with a plan to deport refugees to.. Rwanda. It must be a good idea when the EU does it.

No, it isn't a good idea when the EU does it, and many people in the EU consider it to be fundamentally against the idea of the european project.
 
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briantrumpet

briantrumpet

Timewaster
The most alarming thing is the way that some people actually believe this. The same people will become outraged over the idea of the UK deporting refugees to Rwanda whilst wildly cheering when the EU comes up with a plan to deport refugees to.. Rwanda. It must be a good idea when the EU does it.

Not cheering either, though I'm sure Farage is. Strange times.
 
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PurplePenguin

Über Member
Not cheering either, though I'm sure Farage is. Strange times.

The problem is that you easily voted out the lot that brought it in in the UK and the scheme was abandoned. It's quite a lot harder to undo it at an EU level especially when some people think the EU is a gift to humanity.
 
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briantrumpet

briantrumpet

Timewaster
The UK should join the EU to save them from themselves?

Have you ever joined something that you've not 100% agreed with? Like a board of governors of a school, for instance, if you think you can contribute something and thereby improve it? Just a random example, obvs.
 
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Psamathe

Legendary Member
Have you ever joined something that you've not 100% agreed with? Like a board of governors of a school, for instance, if you think you can contribute something and thereby improve it? Just a random example, obvs.
Personally, sometimes I have, sometimes I've declined. One important consideration is when you disagree with a policy whether you are forced to support the decision in public. eg I could never be a Cabinet Minister as I there would be decisions I disagree with and I'd never be prepared to do the "collective responsibility", never publicly defend something I (strongly) disagreed with.
 

PurplePenguin

Über Member
Have you ever joined something that you've not 100% agreed with? Like a board of governors of a school, for instance, if you think you can contribute something and thereby improve it? Just a random example, obvs.

If you live in a democracy then you need to accept that you won't agree with all decisions the government makes, but you do get to vote. You also get to stand for parliament. Of course, both of those things are true for the EU, but the structure is such that things mostly only go in one direction which is greater regulation and more restrictions. So, for example, if you look at something like VAT on private school fees. Personally, I think this is a bad idea, but I accept the fact it was part of Labour's manifesto and had legitimate support - it would have been virtually impossible to implement whilst in the EU, because at some point the blanket VAT rules came into effect.

Now, you can argue that such blanket rules are for the greater good, and for a while there has been this naive view that whatever the EU does is right. It's a gift to humanity. Whether it is mobile phone chargers or roaming fees everything is a crowd pleaser. But this approach of trying to be popular can't always work, there needs to be a system of checks and balances like in, er, the US system that stops a hostile orange thing taking over. Therefore, it is really important that people don't think the EU is a gift to humanity, and that the institutions are held to account.

But as you say, this is not the UK's concern any more unless it considers rejoining.
 
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briantrumpet

briantrumpet

Timewaster
If you live in a democracy then you need to accept that you won't agree with all decisions the government makes, but you do get to vote. You also get to stand for parliament. Of course, both of those things are true for the EU, but the structure is such that things mostly only go in one direction which is greater regulation and more restrictions. So, for example, if you look at something like VAT on private school fees. Personally, I think this is a bad idea, but I accept the fact it was part of Labour's manifesto and had legitimate support - it would have been virtually impossible to implement whilst in the EU, because at some point the blanket VAT rules came into effect.

Now, you can argue that such blanket rules are for the greater good, and for a while there has been this naive view that whatever the EU does is right. It's a gift to humanity. Whether it is mobile phone chargers or roaming fees everything is a crowd pleaser. But this approach of trying to be popular can't always work, there needs to be a system of checks and balances like in, er, the US system that stops a hostile orange thing taking over. Therefore, it is really important that people don't think the EU is a gift to humanity, and that the institutions are held to account.

But as you say, this is not the UK's concern any more unless it considers rejoining.

Is it not a concern if the huge trading and political bloc on its doorstep makes poor decisions that also adversely affect the UK?

This is the myth of 'sovereignty'. Maybe if the UK was equal in size and world economic/political clout as the EU, I might be more inclined to agree with you.

FWIW, I think the 'gift to humanity' is overselling it somewhat, but I would argue that it's generally been a force for good, even if aspects of it and its decisions are flawed. Hardly surprising in a new and evolving inter-governmental political and economic structure. I mean, the UK's been around for quite a long time, and we're still fucking things up big time.
 
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PurplePenguin

Über Member
Is it not a concern if the huge trading and political bloc on its doorstep makes poor decisions that also adversely affect the UK?

This is the myth of 'sovereignty'. Maybe if the UK was equal in size and world economic/political clout as the EU, I might be more inclined to agree with you.

Do you say the same to Ukrainians?
 
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