EU Internal Trouble?

[spen666]

Seems as if Poland have upset things by not totally surrendering

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...calates-war-of-words-with-eu-over-rule-of-law

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rsula-von-der-Leyen-vowed-punish-country.html

 

[Bromptonaut]

If you join a club you are expected to follow the rules...

 

[BoldonLad]

If you join a club you are expected to follow the rules...

Exactly. Although I believe rules have been bent, when necessary(?)

 

[spen666]

If you join a club you are expected to follow the rules...

Poland say they have abided by the rules they signed up to

 

[Bromptonaut]

Poland say they have abided by the rules they signed up to

I suspect the Mandy Rice-Davis principle might apply here.

In any event the club can change the rules over time. I'm old enough to remember Working Men's Clubs where the women were second class citizens.

The real issue here, and in Hungary, is people and governments hankering for old certainties. I hope that younger and more liberal Poles can learn from the UK's experience and, push>shove, carpe diem.

 

[Beebo]

Poland doesn’t want to leave the EU.
They just want to curtail some powers. It’s a real shame the UK couldn’t negotiate a small change to the EU in order to remain.

 

[mjr]

Poland doesn’t want to leave the EU.
They just want to curtail some powers. It’s a real shame the UK couldn’t negotiate a small change to the EU in order to remain.

Except Cameron did, but the newspapers declared them insufficient.

 

[FishFright]

Being a former Soviet satellite makes them a little more nervy about external interventions.

Unlike Plague Island which dreamed of former glories and expected them to return.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

If you join a club you are expected to follow the rules...

Jup, but the EU is riddles with countries saying f*ck all to the rules, and then finally resulting in the eu abandoning them. Like the rule that only so much % of the GDP needed to be kept(GDP dept ratio) in order to keep the euro stable. The Netherlands was the only country abiding to it, so they canceled it all together, and see the debt mountain it is now.. But the EU has a Triple A rating... what could possibly go wrong? It's not like 2008 was all about exactly the same thing with banks that where highly overvalued etc.

 

[Unkraut]

It seems to me the problem in this instance is the EU is wanting to uphold the rule of law, the independence of the judiciary and a free press against regimes in Poland and Hungary which are whittling them down.

That is how this is being reported here, although to be honest the coverage might lean in the EU direction sometimes.

The EU cannot thrive if this kind of lawless nationalism is on the march. The UK Conservatives aligned themselves with this, and the population of the UK should watch out that they don't drift in the same direction.

 

[Ian H]

It seems to me the problem in this instance is the EU is wanting to uphold the rule of law, the independence of the judiciary and a free press against regimes in Poland and Hungary which are whittling them down.

That is how this is being reported here, although to be honest the coverage might lean in the EU direction sometimes.

Indeed. the Polish supreme court is now appointed by the government, so this is basically a political manoeuvre.

The EU cannot thrive if this kind of lawless nationalism is on the march. The UK Conservatives aligned themselves with this, and the population of the UK should watch out that they don't drift in the same direction.

I think we already are. This government is fomenting anger against the judiciary at the same time as undermining parliamentary authority.

 

[steve292]

It seems to me the problem in this instance is the EU is wanting to uphold the rule of law, the independence of the judiciary and a free press against regimes in Poland and Hungary which are whittling them down.

That is how this is being reported here, although to be honest the coverage might lean in the EU direction sometimes.

The EU cannot thrive if this kind of lawless nationalism is on the march. The UK Conservatives aligned themselves with this, and the population of the UK should watch out that they don't drift in the same direction.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-human-rights-act-b1939870.html

We are already on that road.

 

[Archie_tect]

It seems to me the problem in this instance is the EU is wanting to uphold the rule of law, the independence of the judiciary and a free press against regimes in Poland and Hungary which are whittling them down.

That is how this is being reported here, although to be honest the coverage might lean in the EU direction sometimes.

The EU cannot thrive if this kind of lawless nationalism is on the march. The UK Conservatives aligned themselves with this, and the population of the UK should watch out that they don't drift in the same direction.

I believe that the mindset of the voting population of the UK who support the principles of UKIP [whether openly or in the privacy of their own thoughts] has already drifted in that direction, which is why the UK voted 52-48 to leave.

 

[stowie]

Jup, but the EU is riddles with countries saying f*ck all to the rules, and then finally resulting in the eu abandoning them. Like the rule that only so much % of the GDP needed to be kept(GDP dept ratio) in order to keep the euro stable. The Netherlands was the only country abiding to it, so they canceled it all together, and see the debt mountain it is now.. But the EU has a Triple A rating... what could possibly go wrong? It's not like 2008 was all about exactly the same thing with banks that where highly overvalued etc.

The EU has a specific problem with more authoritarian / nationalistic governments. They want to ignore the pesky democracy rules with EU membership but know that leaving the EU will be a disaster. So they will dance along the line to see how far they can push.

The Euro rules are a bit different. Firstly, the debt mountain doesn't reside with the EU, but EU members. The Debt / GDP ratios are a good rule, but every country has been busting them for years in and out of the EU (first financial crash and then COVID).

The EU AAA rating is for EU debt - not EU member debt which is different. That is, the borrowing that the EU does itself. The EU borrowing is relatively modest and the EU rules for repayment are stringent so the debt is classed as low risk. On the other hand, EU member debt ranges hugely from AAA to around BB. This is the debt that each member state has via borrowing. Germany has a far better credit rating than Greece. The picture is complicated by the common currency in the Eurozone in that investors in Greece pre-crash were rating their credit-worthiness higher than they should have because they believed the Euro was being implicitly backed by more stable economies by virtue that they also were using the currency.

The financial crisis was generated by the private sector. Governments may not have helped by their lax oversight, but make no mistake - the people who crashed the economy were those having a party with sub prime derivatives. And the massive mis-valuation of these "assets" by ratings agencies who were in the pocket of the very people asking for the ratings. Government borrowing ballooned because governments bailed out these idiots to stop the whole financial system collapsing. And then the government debt was paid back by raising taxes and reducing spending on pretty much everyone except those who caused it in the first place.

 

[mudsticks]

The EU has a specific problem with more authoritarian / nationalistic governments. They want to ignore the pesky democracy rules with EU membership but know that leaving the EU will be a disaster. So they will dance along the line to see how far they can push.

The Euro rules are a bit different. Firstly, the debt mountain doesn't reside with the EU, but EU members. The Debt / GDP ratios are a good rule, but every country has been busting them for years in and out of the EU (first financial crash and then COVID).

The EU AAA rating is for EU debt - not EU member debt which is different. That is, the borrowing that the EU does itself. The EU borrowing is relatively modest and the EU rules for repayment are stringent so the debt is classed as low risk. On the other hand, EU member debt ranges hugely from AAA to around BB. This is the debt that each member state has via borrowing. Germany has a far better credit rating than Greece. The picture is complicated by the common currency in the Eurozone in that investors in Greece pre-crash were rating their credit-worthiness higher than they should have because they believed the Euro was being implicitly backed by more stable economies by virtue that they also were using the currency.

The financial crisis was generated by the private sector. Governments may not have helped by their lax oversight, but make no mistake - the people who crashed the economy were those having a party with sub prime derivatives. And the massive mis-valuation of these "assets" by ratings agencies who were in the pocket of the very people asking for the ratings. Government borrowing ballooned because governments bailed out these idiots to stop the whole financial system collapsing. And then the government debt was paid back by raising taxes and reducing spending on pretty much everyone except those who caused it in the first place.

Are there now measures in place, or measures being mooted to prevent a reoccurance of this bolded bit, such as better oversight of the ratings agencies ??