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monkers

Shaman
Isn't it for a qualified legal professional to use the word "alleged" if the charge has not been proven?

To my ears it sounds unusual for a legal professional to state it that way. Ordinarily the legal professional would say ''that is a matter for the judge'' in a test of civil law, otherwise in a trial of criminal law would say ''that is a matter for the jury to decide''.
 

icowden

Pharaoh
To my ears it sounds unusual for a legal professional to state it that way. Ordinarily the legal professional would say ''that is a matter for the judge'' in a test of civil law, otherwise in a trial of criminal law would say ''that is a matter for the jury to decide''.

Actually - fair point, Spen did say that they were "accused" of criminal damage, which is true. Not sure why we are not allowed the opinion that it some of it seems a bit spurious though.
 

monkers

Shaman
Actually - fair point, Spen did say that they were "accused" of criminal damage, which is true. Not sure why we are not allowed the opinion that it some of it seems a bit spurious though.
Fair enough. This is but a tiny internet forum. I'm happy to compare notes with you about why you say it seems a bit spurious - there's some interesting legal questions and points within.
 
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spen666

Über Member
I've not admitted to anything. I'm not charged with anything except a spurious allegation from you.

I set out some fact about freedom of expression to another poster. I didn't introduce the Filton prisoners, that was you. In reply to that post I made the comment that they had been on remand for a year. You will know that the ordinary arrangement is for a maximum period of 6 months. You'll also know that the delay has been criticised from people in high offices.

You should note that I asked a fair question about peaceful protesters, which should have made it obvious that I was making mention of the peaceful protesters who were rounded up of the street while sitting and holding placards. Many of those face charges on the grounds of terrorism and potentially could face prison sentences.

Perhaps you'll start to consider what is written before bashing away at the keyboard on one of your hobby horses?

Can bring yourself to admit burglars, those who cause criminal damage or assault people are not peaceful protestors still?
 

spen666

Über Member
I'll let the jury decide rather than you. Perhaps you'll consider stop trolling me.

Still struggling i see with accepting that the claim those on remand were peaceful protestors is untrue & a lie.

BTW its not a matter for a jury to decide if it was a peaceful protest or kit, so your attempting to hid behind the jury is farcical.

The jury will decide if the offences they are charged with have been made out. They are not charged with non peaceful protesting ad there is no such offence.


Its hilarious your squirming to avoid admitting you were incorrect when claiming these were peaceful protectors and your unwillingness to accept that burglary, cri.inal damage or assault are not peaceful protesting.

Whether their actions were justified or not is for a jury to decide. Whether its a form of peaceful protest or not is not a legal issue
 

monkers

Shaman
Still struggling i see with accepting that the claim those on remand were peaceful protestors is untrue & a lie.

BTW its not a matter for a jury to decide if it was a peaceful protest or kit, so your attempting to hid behind the jury is farcical.

The jury will decide if the offences they are charged with have been made out. They are not charged with non peaceful protesting ad there is no such offence.


Its hilarious your squirming to avoid admitting you were incorrect when claiming these were peaceful protectors and your unwillingness to accept that burglary, cri.inal damage or assault are not peaceful protesting.

Whether their actions were justified or not is for a jury to decide. Whether its a form of peaceful protest or not is not a legal issue

My original post did not make mention of the Filton prisoners. I’ve already explained that. On that basis I feel no need to answer your questions or respond to allegations based on something I didn’t say.

However, since you keep raising the Filton case, I will make a few limited points, with the usual caveat that I am not familiar with every detail.

International human rights law sets a high threshold for restricting the rights to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention. The offences of burglary, criminal damage and assault were already fully legislated for long before the current government, and the controversy here is not about the existence of those offences but about the use of counter‑terrorism powers and the proposed “terrorist connection” in relation to protest‑related actions. That is precisely what has prompted concerns from legal observers in the UK and internationally.

It is also true that extended pre‑trial remand is common in terrorism cases, but it is not typical for defendants charged with burglary, criminal damage and assault, even when those offences are serious. That is why questions have been raised about whether treating the case as terrorism‑related is necessary and proportionate. None of this implies that due process has not been followed; it simply reflects the legal debate about proportionality.

I have no detailed knowledge about items allegedly removed from the premises, so I cannot comment on the burglary allegation beyond the fact that entry and damage appear to be accepted elements.

The criminal damage appears uncontentious in the sense that damage occurred. The legal issue is whether a defence of lawful excuse or a broader Article 10/11 justification can be made out on the facts.

As for assault, that covers a very wide range of conduct. Minor physical contact—such as brushing past security—can technically amount to assault. I have seen reports that no injuries were sustained, so it is reasonable to consider the charge in context and with regard to intent.
 

monkers

Shaman
The jury will decide if the offences they are charged with have been made out. They are not charged with non peaceful protesting ad there is no such offence.

Just ludicrous assertions. The jury may consider the charges brought and decide on the evidence on the one hand, on the other hand the jury remain free to decide a verdict from conscience. Remember the Bristol statue verdict?

The jury might also consider the fact that the government have since ended the £2bn contract with Elbit Systems as recognition that the protesters were making a valid point.

It is an interesting case, and I for one will be interested to see the verdicts.
 
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spen666

Über Member
My original post did not make mention of the Filton prisoners. I’ve already explained that. On that basis I feel no need to answer your questions or respond to allegations based on something I didn’t say.

However, since you keep raising the Filton case, I will make a few limited points, with the usual caveat that I am not familiar with every detail.

International human rights law sets a high threshold for restricting the rights to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention. The offences of burglary, criminal damage and assault were already fully legislated for long before the current government, and the controversy here is not about the existence of those offences but about the use of counter‑terrorism powers and the proposed “terrorist connection” in relation to protest‑related actions. That is precisely what has prompted concerns from legal observers in the UK and internationally.

It is also true that extended pre‑trial remand is common in terrorism cases, but it is not typical for defendants charged with burglary, criminal damage and assault, even when those offences are serious. That is why questions have been raised about whether treating the case as terrorism‑related is necessary and proportionate. None of this implies that due process has not been followed; it simply reflects the legal debate about proportionality.

I have no detailed knowledge about items allegedly removed from the premises, so I cannot comment on the burglary allegation beyond the fact that entry and damage appear to be accepted elements.

The criminal damage appears uncontentious in the sense that damage occurred. The legal issue is whether a defence of lawful excuse or a broader Article 10/11 justification can be made out on the facts.

As for assault, that covers a very wide range of conduct. Minor physical contact—such as brushing past security—can technically amount to assault. I have seen reports that no injuries were sustained, so it is reasonable to consider the charge in context and with regard to intent.

Lots more words salad and avoidance of answering the question as to whether criminal damage, burglary and assault are peaceful protest methods.




BTW you are the only person who had referenced the "Filton prisoners" whoever or whatever they are.

I have not mentioned them. You however keep mentioning them then arguing you haven5mentioned them.
 

monkers

Shaman
Lots more words salad and avoidance of answering the question as to whether criminal damage, burglary and assault are peaceful protest methods.




BTW you are the only person who had referenced the "Filton prisoners" whoever or whatever they are.

I have not mentioned them. You however keep mentioning them then arguing you haven5mentioned them.

Then you know less than me about the case - which isn't that much frankly.

I've given some legal arguments to the best of my knowledge. You've given nothing helpful (as usual).
 

spen666

Über Member
Then you know less than me about the case - which isn't that much frankly.

I have no idea which case you are referring to, so not sure how you expect me to know about whatever case it is you are talking about.
I've given some legal arguments to the best of my knowledge. You've given nothing helpful (as usual).

I'm simply asking you as you claim all these peaceful protestors are being incarcerated if you think burglary, criminal damage and assaults are peaceful protests7

There is no legal argument needed, its merely whether you consider criminal damage, assaults and burglary are peaceful protests?
 

monkers

Shaman
I have no idea which case you are referring to, so not sure how you expect me to know about whatever case it is you are talking about.


I'm simply asking you as you claim all these peaceful protestors are being incarcerated if you think burglary, criminal damage and assaults are peaceful protests7

There is no legal argument needed, its merely whether you consider criminal damage, assaults and burglary are peaceful protests?
When you wrote this ...

Who are on remand awaiting trial accused of various offences including burglary, criminal damage, assault etc - all well known peaceful protest methods

... which remand prisoners did you have in mind?
 

monkers

Shaman
Just to return to an earlier unsettled squabble here after I posted this ... see bolded part ...

The Filton activists have been on remand for over a year. Regardless of our own subjective political views that is unacceptable. The Filton trial case is especially interesting as it will be a test of ''lawful excuse''. The defence barrister in this case is leaning heavily on advising the jury that they must not be influenced or led by the judge or the media to a finding or guilt.

Spen666 said ....
I'm simply asking you as you claim all these peaceful protestors are being incarcerated if you think burglary, criminal damage and assaults are peaceful protests? There is no legal argument needed, its merely whether you consider criminal damage, assaults and burglary are peaceful protests?

To which the reply must be, legal argument was needed because they have been acquitted, as I had suggested may prove to be the case. So yes, an interesting case I think.


View: https://youtu.be/YacezqsNTzc
 
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