Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

They weren't segregated by sex until the Gaols Act of 1823 was passed. I never said they were segregated before this time. You are obviously misreading something I wrote or I didn't write it clearly enough.
For the last time: jails used to be mixed sex. They later decided to separate men from women for good reasons - like privacy, dignity, safety. Those reasons still apply 200 years later.

Still, gotta love the Fry family. Prisons, chocolate, and Quaker-ing it up all over the place. Marvellous.

 

[classic33]

They weren't segregated by sex until the Gaols Act of 1823 was passed. I never said they were segregated before this time. You are obviously misreading something I wrote or I didn't write it clearly enough.
For the last time: jails used to be mixed sex. They later decided to separate men from women for good reasons - like privacy, dignity, safety. Those reasons still apply 200 years later.

Still, gotta love the Fry family. Prisons, chocolate, and Quaker-ing it up all over the place. Marvellous.

View attachment 3062

You've said, more than once, that "They were segregated from 1823". You are confusing the passing of an act of Parliament with when the effects started to take place. They are not the same thing, which is why you can't name a prison where segregation by sex was operated in 1823/24/25.

Holloway was the first separated prison, built in 1852, segregated by sex over fifty years later. Way short of the 200 years you keep on mentioning.

1923/25/25 corrected to 1823/24/25

 

[AuroraSaab]

So around 120 years not 200 ....
That's even more shameful then, isn't it? That women have only had their own jails for not much more than a century. Whether it's 1823, 1902, or 2023, the need for the separation of the sexes in prison is still there, regardless.

 

[classic33]

And legally, unless the system decides otherwise, women go to women's prisons. That's been the system, on this island, for the last 120 years.

Not a men's prison or Special Care Units.

 

[Unkraut]

Both religion and gender identity are matters of personal belief. We shouldn't make laws based on beliefs, only on material reality.

I self ID as a millionaire. My bank manager, who is a phobic bigot, refuses to recognise this. There's a clear need to change the law ...

 

[monkers]

I self ID as a millionaire. My bank manager, who is a phobic bigot, refuses to recognise this. There's a clear need to change the law ...

I agree with you ...




... you are the 'master of the inane comment'.

Religious belief is extrinsic to the mind, since it doesn't exist unless it is taught. Gender identity is intrinsic to the mind, therefore is self-knowledge.

If intrinsic self-knowledge is not real, then we have no identity at all, and exist only as atoms. Your extrinsic religious belief and moral code is teaching you that you exist only as atoms. Atoms have no capacity for religious belief. You become a paradox in your own right.

 

[matticus]

You've said, more than once, that "They were segregated from 1823". You are confusing the passing of an act of Parliament with when the effects started to take place. They are not the same thing, which is why you can't name a prison where segregation by sex was operated in 1823/24/25.

Holloway was the first separated prison, built in 1852, segregated by sex over fifty years later. Way short of the 200 years you keep on mentioning.

1923/25/25 corrected to 1823/24/25

Can I just say how much I've enjoyed this aspect of the discussion? I'm sure I'm not alone in appreciating the efforts by @classic33 to prevent these KEY details being glossed over.

 

[AuroraSaab]

We are taught the stereotypes associated with male and female though. And not adhering to these stereotypes is partly what makes kids think they are transgender. How can a man have self-knowledge that he is a woman, and vice versa? A man has no frame of reference for what being a woman feels like, and a woman has no frame of reference for what being a man feels like. All you can do is adopt the stereotypical dress and behaviour as an expression of your subjective feeling.

The best one can say is 'I want to live like a stereotypical man/woman'. Because actually being the opposite sex will always be outside our own experience.

I find the idea of a gendered soul as untenable as the idea of a religious soul.

 

[icowden]

How can a man have self-knowledge that he is a woman, and vice versa? A man has no frame of reference for what being a woman feels like, and a woman has no frame of reference for what being a man feels like. All you can do is adopt the stereotypical dress and behaviour as an expression of your subjective feeling.

This is often illustrated when people who are trans adopt a very stylistically extreme, sexualised version of "being a woman". I have also seen the statement "I feel much more like a woman" challenged with - "oh so all women feel the same way do we? You do realise that women are all different?".

 

[Ian H]

We are taught the stereotypes associated with male and female though. And not adhering to these stereotypes is partly what makes kids think they are transgender. How can a man have self-knowledge that he is a woman, and vice versa? A man has no frame of reference for what being a woman feels like, and a woman has no frame of reference for what being a man feels like. All you can do is adopt the stereotypical dress and behaviour as an expression of your subjective feeling.

The best one can say is 'I want to live like a stereotypical man/woman'. Because actually being the opposite sex will always be outside our own experience.

I find the idea of a gendered soul as untenable as the idea of a religious soul.

It requires empathy to understand that other people may have very different lived experiences from your own.

 

[monkers]

We are taught the stereotypes associated with male and female though. And not adhering to these stereotypes is partly what makes kids think they are transgender. How can a man have self-knowledge that he is a woman, and vice versa? A man has no frame of reference for what being a woman feels like, and a woman has no frame of reference for what being a man feels like. All you can do is adopt the stereotypical dress and behaviour as an expression of your subjective feeling.

The best one can say is 'I want to live like a stereotypical man/woman'. Because actually being the opposite sex will always be outside our own experience.

I find the idea of a gendered soul as untenable as the idea of a religious soul.

Under what 'code' then does your ideological belief, since that is how you have now described it, hold preponderance over the lived reality of others?

 

[multitool]

How can a man have self-knowledge that he is a woman, and vice versa? A man has no frame of reference for what being a woman feels like, and a woman has no frame of reference for what being a man feels like. All you can do is adopt the stereotypical dress and behaviour as an expression of your subjective feeling.

The best one can say is 'I want to live like a stereotypical man/woman'. Because actually being the opposite sex will always be outside our own experience.

I find the idea of a gendered soul as untenable as the idea of a religious soul.

= trans people don't exist.

But apparently its women who are being "erased".

 

[monkers]

= trans people don't exist.

But apparently its women who are being "erased".

Especially ironic as 'woman' relates to perception of gender, rather than reproductive biological sex.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It requires empathy to understand that other people may have very different lived experiences from your own.

I'm not seeing much empathy for women's lived experience in this thread.

We happily accommodate people's individual lived experience, whether it's religious beliefs or beliefs about gender identity, as long as it doesn't impinge on other people's rights. When people believe their subjective lived experience should override everybody else then it's going to be a problem.

 

[multitool]

I'm not seeing much empathy for women's lived experience in this thread.

You are literally the ONLY woman here with an anti-trans agenda.

All the other women disagree with you.