Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

= trans people don't exist.

But apparently its women who are being "erased".

They exist, just as everybody else exists. Christians don't disappear just because others don't believe in their subjective descriptor of themselves.

Especially ironic as 'woman' relates to perception of gender, rather than reproductive biological sex.

Only in the minds of a tiny minority does 'woman' mean perceived gender (ie a load of stereotypes) rather than biological sex.

 

[Unkraut]

= trans people don't exist.

A transwoman is merely an idea in the mind of a trans activist.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You are literally the ONLY woman here with an anti-trans agenda.

All the other women disagree with you.

If you'd read the thread you would see that Mudsticks, Claude, and I don't disagree on everything. But there you go, ignoring what women themselves have said.

If you think wanting to maintain single sex spaces is anti-trans, then really it's an admission that your transactivism is anti-women's rights. It's not focused on building things for trans people, it's focused on getting into women's spaces.

You have never, not even once, in this thread suggested a way forward that involves anything other than women losing their single sex spaces.

 

[icowden]

You are literally the ONLY woman here with an anti-trans agenda.
All the other women disagree with you.

That "all" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. We have had 4 women participate in this thread. Two approximately on each side. One has left due to the toxic and unpleasant nature of the discussion.

Almost a parallel of real life!

 

[icowden]

You are literally the ONLY woman here with an anti-trans agenda.

Anti-trans or pro-woman? Is it a glass half full / half empty thing?

I'm amused to see all the news stories about people boycotting Hogwarts Legacy and gaming sites putting up disclaimers or not reviewing the game. I'm sure it's working. Oh no - it's the best selling game at the moment with pre-orders through the roof (over 200,000 units pre-ordered).

 

[monkers]

A transwoman is merely an idea in the mind of a trans activist.

Religion is merely an idea, and the belief that the beliefs of religious folk trumps the rights of all others is arrogance, and a form of bigotry.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Religion is merely an idea, and the belief that the beliefs of religious folk trumps the rights of all others is arrogance, and a form of bigotry.

It's as sincerely held a belief as gender identity is. Many people don't believe in the concept of gender identity or religion. The idea that the beliefs of gender identity folk trumps the rights of all others is arrogance and a form of bigotry.

 

[monkers]

They exist, just as everybody else exists. Christians don't disappear just because others don't believe in their subjective descriptor of themselves.



Only in the minds of a tiny minority does 'woman' mean perceived gender (ie a load of stereotypes) rather than biological sex.

April Ashley who famously was perceived as a woman by all those who met her. Some perceived her as not just a woman, but a lady. It was not until a so-called friend outed her to the national press for the sake of a £5 note that the perception changed.

Gender is the perception by others, followed by the presumption that biologic sex is congruent with it. Gender identity is not the perception of others, but self-knowledge.

Yes biology has importance, nobody denies that, but nobody denies the biology and chemistry of the brain as having no value beyond material realism; we are not synthetics. People can function very well without genitals, but not without a brain.

 

[multitool]

That "all" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. We have had 4 women participate in this thread. Two approximately on each side.

The word "approximately" doing a lot of heavy lifting here

 

[Ian H]

April Ashley who famously was perceived as a woman by all those who met her. Some perceived her as not just a woman, but a lady. It was not until a so-called friend outed her to the national press for the sake of a £5 note that the perception changed.

Gender is the perception by others, followed by the presumption that biologic sex is congruent with it. Gender identity is not the perception of others, but self-knowledge.

Yes biology has importance, nobody denies that, but nobody denies the biology and chemistry of the brain as having no value beyond material realism; we are not synthetics. People can function very well without genitals, but not without a brain.

Alessandro Moreschi, the last castrati, sings Ave Maria, via Acoustica Pro, 1902

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14MH2E94um4

 

[AuroraSaab]

Some perceived her as not just a woman, but a lady.

Where do you even start with a comment like that? Not just a woman, but a lady. What does that even mean?

Unless you could read the mind of every person April Ashley encountered you have no idea what sex they were seeing AA as. The fact that someone might have called AA 'Miss Ashley' could mean anything from genuinely thinking their sex was female to simply being polite.

Gender is the perception by others, followed by the presumption that biologic sex is congruent with it. Gender identity is not the perception of others, but self-knowledge.

What is gender then but a load of stereotypes about how people present? You might see someone in say building site gear and take your cues from that and automatically think they were male. When you realise they are female all you've done is momentarily mis-sexed them on the basis of stereotypes about appearance. You haven't 'perceived their gender'. You've made a guess based on stereotypes.

Gender identity is a personal belief. If it was innate, everybody would have one. Expressing that belief through wearing clothes stereotypically associated with a particular sex is simply personality.

 

[Ian H]

Where do you even start with a comment like that? Not just a woman, but a lady. What does that even mean?

[Wiki] The exhibition ‘April Ashley: portrait of a lady’ was held at the Museum of Liverpool from 27 September 2013 to 1 March 2015

 

[monkers]

Where do you even start with a comment like that? Not just a woman, but a lady. What does that even mean?

Unless you could read the mind of every person April Ashley encountered you have no idea what sex they were seeing AA as. The fact that someone might have called AA 'Miss Ashley' could mean anything from genuinely thinking their sex was female to simply being polite.



What is gender then but a load of stereotypes about how people present? You might see someone in say building site gear and take your cues from that and automatically think they were male. When you realise they are female all you've done is momentarily mis-sexed them on the basis of stereotypes about appearance. You haven't 'perceived their gender'. You've made a guess based on stereotypes.

Gender identity is a personal belief. If it was innate, everybody would have one. Expressing that belief through wearing clothes stereotypically associated with a particular sex is simply personality.

People might say they have no gender identity; and yet they continue to express one every time they dress. Being agender is a gender identity, and these people express themselves by dressing androgenously. People use their gender identity every time they shop for clothes, shoes, etc.

 

[AuroraSaab]

[Wiki] The exhibition ‘April Ashley: portrait of a lady’ was held at the Museum of Liverpool from 27 September 2013 to 1 March 2015

What does it mean to be a lady though? I mean, my body is female. How do I know if I'm a lady?

People might say they have no gender identity; and yet they continue to express one every time they dress. Being agender is a gender identity, and these people express themselves by dressing androgenously. People use their gender identity every time they shop for clothes, shoes, etc.

How can you possibly know this? They might be buying a pink top because they like pink. Or wearing old jeans and trainers because they are comfy not because their gender identity = 'androgynous'.

We are certainly all indoctrinated into stereotypes of what male and female clothing typically consists of, but to say that those people who are non-conforming in dress are expressing the gender identity of the opposite sex, or are androgynous, is sexist and regressive.

 

[monkers]

What does it mean to be a lady though? I mean, my body is female. How do I know if I'm a lady?



How can you possibly know this? They might be buying a pink top because they like pink. Or wearing old jeans and trainers because they are comfy not because their gender identity = 'androgynous'.

We are certainly all indoctrinated into stereotypes of what male and female clothing typically consists of, but to say that those people who are non-conforming in dress are expressing the gender identity of the opposite sex, or are androgynous, is sexist and regressive.

It's the exact opposite. Bigotry isn't progressive. Is it not true that feminists believe that women should not be told what to wear, and not to wear?


Addendum.
Woman = perception of gender formed by gender expression. Lady = perception of gender by gender expression + class.

If you are not perceived as a lady, then you are probably not, since being 'ladylike' is not a protected characteristic in law.