Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

I don't believe I have commented on biology, though you seem to be careless in researching 'facts'.

York brought it up. York benefited from male body advantage and testosterone - both natural and illegal extra doses he knew would be beneficial - then would have us believe this advantage does not exist. If you had researched any facts you'd know his arguments are unevidenced.

F*cking hell. A potentially interesting read gets brought up and it's getting ripped apart already.

You find it interesting, I find it tiresome. It's tiresome to see York repeating arguments that have been disproved time and time again.

York has a vested interest. What would have happened if he had been given a platform within cycling organisations to present this as his expert view? Cycling in the UK would have gone down the same route as the IOC where males were included because activist 'experts' like trans identifying male Joanna Harper were listened to and other voices weren't. Look how long it has taken to undo that unfairness.

The AI has combined the two Robert Millars. He was known for being small and light which it is thought contributed to his climb records.

Could be I suppose. Average height of a TDF cyclist is 5' 11". R Millar doesn't look particularly tiny in any group photos though so still very much in the common male range not the female range I would say.


https://www.topendsports.com/sport/cycling/anthropometry-tourdefrance.php

 

[Ian H]

You find it interesting, I find it tiresome. It's tiresome to see York repeating arguments that have been disproved time and time again.

There isn't really enough data from the tiny sample of trans athletes to come to any definitive conclusions. Plenty of anecdotes though, often quoted as 'proof'.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You're joking now surely. 43 year old Laurel Hubbard qualifying for the Olympics against 24 year olds. Lia Thomas going from low ranking to setting Women's records. Trans identifying men and high school boys winning women's events that they wouldn't even qualify for as males. These are no longer tiny in number.

We know what male body advantage means because we can compare women's performances with men's. You would have to be blind to think this advantage magically disappears with lower testosterone - which is still usually far higher than the female T range.

View: https://x.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1897409206065750108

 

[Ian H]

There isn't really enough data from the tiny sample of trans athletes to come to any definitive conclusions. Plenty of anecdotes though, often quoted as 'proof'.

 

[AndyRM]

York brought it up. York benefited from male body advantage and testosterone - both natural and illegal extra doses he knew would be beneficial - then would have us believe this advantage does not exist. If you had researched any facts you'd know his arguments are unevidenced.



You find it interesting, I find it tiresome. It's tiresome to see York repeating arguments that have been disproved time and time again.

York has a vested interest. What would have happened if he had been given a platform within cycling organisations to present this as his expert view? Cycling in the UK would have gone down the same route as the IOC where males were included because activist 'experts' like trans identifying male Joanna Harper were listened to and other voices weren't. Look how long it has taken to undo that unfairness.



Could be I suppose. Average height of a TDF cyclist is 5' 11". R Millar doesn't look particularly tiny in any group photos though so still very much in the common male range not the female range I would say.


https://www.topendsports.com/sport/cycling/anthropometry-tourdefrance.php

I haven't read the book, neither have you. I think it'll be a good read.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Trans identifying men winning events with performances that wouldn't even qualify for finals in the male category isn't anecdotal. You're simply too misogynistic to see the evidence - the same evidence that sports organisations have finally started to acknowledge and have consequently used to take steps to protect female sports.

I haven't read the book, neither have you. I think it'll be a good read.

The quality of his storytelling isn't the relevant issue. It could win a Pulitzer; he would still be a disingenuous man making unevidenced arguments in order to undermine fairness for women and girls.

 

[AndyRM]

Trans identifying men winning events with performances that wouldn't even qualify for finals in the male category isn't anecdotal. You're simply too misogynistic to see the evidence - the same evidence that sports organisations have finally started to acknowledge and have consequently used to take steps to protect female sports.



The quality of his storytelling isn't the relevant issue. It could win a Pulitzer; he would still be a disingenuous man making unevidenced arguments in order to undermine fairness for women and girls.

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

 

[pinkbikini]

Never trust the AI. Robert Millar is also a Hocket Player documented as 6 foot 2. There is a picture of Robert Millar with Pedro Delgado who is 5 foot 7. They are about the same height. The AI has combined the two Robert Millars. He was known for being small and light which it is thought contributed to his climb records.

Beat me to it. The intelligence is called ‘artificial’ for a reason (at least for now). Also pretty sure most male pro cyclists are not taller than average. But never let facts get in the way of a good diatribe, eh?!!

 

[Ian H]

Trans identifying men winning events with performances that wouldn't even qualify for finals in the male category isn't anecdotal. You're simply too misogynistic to see the evidence - the same evidence that sports organisations have finally started to acknowledge and have consequently used to take steps to protect female sports.

Too few examples to draw any firm conclusions. See the article I linked to a while back.

 

[CXRAndy]

That's why men are being banned from women's sports. Recently boxing identified former Olympic competitor to have won gold, shouldn't have.

I hope they rescind his title and give it to the highest ranking woman

 

[AuroraSaab]

Average height of a TDF male cyclists is 5'11". See link above. Average UK male height is 5'9".

Whether 5ft 3' (average female height) or 6ft 2", York (and any other trans identifying man) would still have male body advantage when competing against women. That is a biological fact.

Too few examples to draw any firm conclusions. See the article I linked to a while back.

No firm conclusions can be drawn about whether men have a sporting advantage? That's a ridiculous statement.

There are also plenty of examples now.
It's a fact that trans identifying men do better in rankings once they switch to competing in the women's category. We actually don't need a million examples of it though because the correct comparator is male vs female performance - and we know that in almost all sports men perform better than women. We do not need to assess how much or little that advantage is impaired by lowered testosterone because testosterone has already done its job.

 

[Ian H]

So you haven't read the article.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The CNN one? I read it. It's a nothing burger of unevidenced trans activism.

It starts with the 'there aren't many men in women's sports so it's not a problem' claim and moves on to what is usually called the Phelps gambit - the idea that certain individuals have bodies that give them natural 'unfair' advantages in their sport - and therefore trans identifying men with their natural physical advantages (ie being male) should be allowed to compete with females. (This is York's 'people come in all sizes' claim).

This ignores the fact that the difference between elite males performance is often a fraction of a second. The difference between elite male and elite female performance is far larger.

It then goes on to quote a few studies that actually show that trans identifying men still have better performance after 4 years on hormones. In one case it was 12%, which is a huge advantage in sporting performance where milliseconds separate athletes.

It finishes with 'What really is the importance of sport?', putting it out there that inclusion is more important than fairness. In which case you should allow doping and heavyweights to box featherweights really.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes, it's not clear whether male body advantage exists. Nobody really knows why men perform better in most sports. It's a mystery frankly.