Gender again. Sorry!

[winjim]

However well intentioned the creator of the word was, the idea that there are 'cis' women and 'trans' women inevitably renders biological women a sub set of their own sex. And seeing as the basis of women's oppression is their sexed body it's hardly surprising that many women find it an offensive term as it suggests men, who don't face that oppression, can be women.

I wonder how far the author would have got if they'd told black people they were cis black and people like Rachel Dolezal were trans black.

View attachment 3237

Define 'black'.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Define 'black'.

Someone's has a go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black...ial or ethnic,(in any discernible percentage).

'The U.S. racial or ethnic classification "black" refers to people with all possible kinds of skin pigmentation, from the darkest through to the very lightest skin colors, including albinos, if they are believed by others to have African ancestry (in any discernible percentage)'

 

[winjim]

Someone's has a go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black...ial or ethnic,(in any discernible percentage).

'The U.S. racial or ethnic classification "black" refers to people with all possible kinds of skin pigmentation, from the darkest through to the very lightest skin colors, including albinos, if they are believed by others to have African ancestry (in any discernible percentage)'

There we go, it's a subjective social construct.

It can't be objectively defined, it's not registered, it's not on your birth certificate, it's based entirely on self ID. Why it keeps being brought up in an attempt to demonstrate the opposite is beyond me.

 

[theclaud]

There we go, it's a subjective social construct.

It can't be objectively defined, it's not registered, it's not on your birth certificate, it's based entirely on self ID. Why it keeps being brought up in an attempt to demonstrate the opposite is beyond me.

Aurora Go Five Pages Without Mentioning Rachel Dolezal Challenge.

 

[winjim]

Aurora Go Five Pages Without Mentioning Rachel Dolezal Challenge.

Saves me the trouble of writing anything if she's gonna carry on refuting her own argument I suppose.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's a comparator because people are oppressed on the basis of their race, just like they are oppressed on the basis of their sex. That's the comparison, not saying sex and race are exactly the same. To self identify into an oppressed group is an act of oppression in itself. Have you run your 'race isn't real' belief past your black friends?

Aurora Go Five Pages Without Mentioning Rachel Dolezal Challenge.

Perhaps you can put me us all straight then and explain why Eddie Izzard is accepted for saying they are a woman but Rachel Dolezal is vilified for saying she is black.

 

[theclaud]

It's a comparator because people are oppressed on the basis of their race, just like they are oppressed on the basis of their sex. That's the comparison, not saying sex and race are exactly the same. To self identify into an oppressed group is an act of oppression in itself. Have you run your 'race isn't real' belief past your black friends?

Perhaps you can put me us all straight then and explain why Eddie Izzard is accepted for saying they are a woman but Rachel Dolezal is vilified for saying she is black.

LOL is there any danger of you growing a sense of humour?

Anyway I can't indulge you right now - I'm on a short break in between churning out acres of blurb on which my job and those of others will depend. I just pop in here now and again when I can't stand to look at any more of my own turgid prose - cos at least it's got a bit more zip than yours.

 

[theclaud]

It's a comparator because people are oppressed on the basis of their race, just like they are oppressed on the basis of their sex. That's the comparison, not saying sex and race are exactly the same. To self identify into an oppressed group is an act of oppression in itself. Have you run your 'race isn't real' belief past your black friends?



Perhaps you can put me us all straight then and explain why Eddie Izzard is accepted for saying they are a woman but Rachel Dolezal is vilified for saying she is black.

Anyway, while I'm here, you first (as winjim has kindly evoked the original and long-forgotten point of the thread). If sex and race are equivalent, why do we need one on our birth certificates but not the other? Or do you want both? While you're at it, why do we need birth certificates anyway?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Anyway, while I'm here, you first (as winjim has kindly evoked the original and long-forgotten point of the thread). If sex and race are equivalent, why do we need one on our birth certificates but not the other? Or do you want both? While you're at it, why do we need birth certificates anyway?

So we can prove we're old enough to use heroin legally.

 

[winjim]

It's a comparator because people are oppressed on the basis of their race, just like they are oppressed on the basis of their sex. That's the comparison, not saying sex and race are exactly the same. To self identify into an oppressed group is an act of oppression in itself. Have you run your 'race isn't real' belief past your black friends?

Is it not the case that it's often the oppressor who makes the classification based on real or perceived characteristics of the oppressed person?

I'm not saying that race isn't real, I'm saying there's no objective way of defining it. As a thought experiment from personal experience, my family on my mother's side has Irish ancestry. Her name before marriage was very identifiably Irish. My great grandfather emigrated to England but would always try to ensure that my great grandmother returned to Ireland to give birth so his children would be Irish. I identify as a member of the family with that name and I acknowledge some Irish heritage but I don't identify as Irish. So, is Irish considered a race, and at what point in the line between my great grandparents and me did the family cease to be Irish and become English?

(You can do a similar thing with my wife and Welsh, but our kids are definitely English)

 

[AuroraSaab]

I didn't say they were equivalent. I very much look forward to the day when your sex and race are irrelevant and never need to be recorded or referred to, other than when of vital importance in medical records. We're just going over the same stuff again though.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Is it not the case that it's often the oppressor who makes the classification based on real or perceived characteristics of the oppressed person?

In some cases I suppose it is and it's used as a way of deciding who to oppress. But then surely a member of the oppressor class opting into the oppressed class to gain accommodations that have been given to that class of people precisely because they are oppressed would be wrong wouldn't it? Like a white student with no discernible black heritage being given a scholarship intended for black students.

I'm not saying that race isn't real, I'm saying there's no objective way of defining it. As a thought experiment from personal experience, my family on my mother's side has Irish ancestry. Her name before marriage was very identifiably Irish. My great grandfather emigrated to England but would always try to ensure that my great grandmother returned to Ireland to give birth so his children would be Irish. I identify as a member of the family with that name and I acknowledge some Irish heritage but I don't identify as Irish. So, is Irish considered a race, and at what point in the line between my great grandparents and me did the family cease to be Irish and become English?

Nationality isn't a race, though obviously people can face prejudice based on their nationality. Noone else (usually) loses out when you personally decide to ID as Irish (or English) though. Once again though we're just going over the same stuff. You can ID as what you like as long as it doesn't affect other people.

 

[winjim]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that many people would consider Irish to be a race, and an oppressed one at that.

 

[multitool]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that many people would consider Irish to be a race, and an oppressed one at that.

What? Oppressed by whom????

It's been an independent state for a century, has DOUBLE the gdp per capita of UK, and ranks way above us in standard of living indexes.

 

[newfhouse]

What? Oppressed by whom????

It's been an independent state for a century, has DOUBLE the gdp per capita of UK, and ranks way above us in standard of living indexes.

My black neighbour is doing very well for himself.