Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

How can we possibly know the figures? There's no transparency so we only hear about it when parents bring it to light after the event. We do know that some parents have expressed concern, as has the head of Ofsted:

"In a notable intervention by the head of Ofsted, Spielman said that: “It’s clear that there are materials being used which have no basis in any reputable scientific, biological explanation or any properly grounded understanding of human relationships.”"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-basis-in-science-says-ofsted-chief-jcwrhcxql

Shouldn't parents and the general public have access to the figures and the materials being used so we can see if there's a problem? I think all external groups who go into schools to teach any subject should have to publish their materials and lesson plans, and say how many schools they have been in to. We should all demand greater transparency from schools about what they teach.

 

[Rusty Nails]

How many is "many"?

42

 

[icowden]

Alleged parental concern is proof of nothing. It's like claiming that concern that Jews are planning to take over the world is evidence that they are. Grade A intellectual dishonesty.

Agreed much parental concern about PHSE in primary has been stirred up by religious groups painting it as teaching 5 year olds about gay anal sex, when in fact it's just a short discussion to share the idea that there are lots of different people in the world and some people may have two dads or two mums and that's fine.

On the other hand questionable organisations such as Mermaids made a concerted effort to get their ideology into Primary and Secondary schools. DFES banned their resource material due to concerns about the charity and the way that it pushes trans ideology onto children.
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-removes-trans-charity-mermaids-from-school-wellbeing-resources/

 

[Bromptonaut]

If kids genuinely aren't being taught about 72 genders then there's nothing to hide in having the materials available for all to see. And if they are being taught about 72 genders and how to safely choke someone during sex then parents can discuss with their school whether they think it's appropriate content and the government can advise on what is appropriate content just like they do with Maths, History, Physics, and every other subject.

Are they being taught, as a fact, that there are 72 genders?

Or is it more oblique as in 'some people organisations say'?

The points raised in Parliament last week concerned Secondary Schools. Even 50 years ago some of my fellow pupils could probably have shown their teachers a clean pair of heels when it comes to some stuff around sex and relationships. My daughter is 30 and a significant proportion of her female age cohort were having periods while still in year 6 - top year primary.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Seems like some parents say their kids are coming home saying they have been told stuff like that. Seeing as the whole idea of even having a gender identity isn't settled science I don't think it's unreasonable for parents to want the government to look into what's being taught.

We all know the world's a different place than 30 years ago. Mainly due to the Internet and pornography kids have access to stuff most of us had never heard of until we were adults. All the more important then that we make sure sex and relationship education is done responsibly, and factually based, and not used as a way of promoting a particular viewpoint.

If schools were inviting groups in to deliver RSE and those groups were promoting the idea that sex was for procreation only or that women were obliged to have sex with their husbands we would rightly be concerned about that too. We wouldn't say it's only a few groups, it doesn't really matter. We'd call for more info and greater transparency.

 

[multitool]

"seems"

can ignore the rest of the post after that opening word

 

[newfhouse]

Seeing as the whole idea of even having a gender identity isn't settled science

Whether you have one or not doesn’t alter the fact that most people do. It may or may not be a social construct but gender identity absolutely does exist.

 

[AuroraSaab]

How is it distinguished from personality? If it exists as a real thing, why don't we all have one? I'd say I have a sexed body and a personality. The sexed body is unchanging and the personality is expressed through choices in clothes, behaviour etc.

Can you tell me how one goes about working out what their gender identity is? Without referring to regressive stereotypes about dress or behaviour. From my point of view, there's no 'gender identity' without regressive stereotypes because otherwise where are you getting your concept of what constitutes maleness and femaleness? You've already rejected biology as defining male and female.

 

[multitool]

On the other hand questionable organisations such as Mermaids made a concerted effort to get their ideology into Primary and Secondary schools. DFES banned their resource material due to concerns about the charity and the way that it pushes trans ideology onto children.
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-removes-trans-charity-mermaids-from-school-wellbeing-resources/

I think there was a concerted effort from the anti-trans lobby who have been co-opted by UK government as purveyors of culture war.

As it stands Mermaids have not been "banned". Their material has been withdrawn "as a precautionary measure pending investigation", which is entirely different to what you are suggesting.

As to the general moral panic over Sex ed in schools, here's an enlightening thread on it. TLDR: It's confected bullshit.


View: https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1633531982775738401?s=20

 

[icowden]

I think there was a concerted effort from the anti-trans lobby who have been co-opted by UK government as purveyors of culture war.
As it stands Mermaids have not been "banned". Their material has been withdrawn "as a precautionary measure pending investigation", which is entirely different to what you are suggesting.

Quite correct. Except that this is the definition of banned:

officially or legally prohibit (something).

SO as DFES has officially prohibited the use of the material whilst Mermaids is being investigated, I think that falls within the purview of "banned".

 

[multitool]

 

[multitool]

How can we possibly know the figures? There's no transparency so we only hear about it when parents bring it to light after the event. We do know that some parents have expressed concern,

Oh rightio.

So we've gone from you asserting that it is "many", to being challenged for proof and you saying that actually it is unknowable, to then asserting it is "some".

Some means more than one

You really do talk out of your arse, don't you.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You seem a little testy this evening. Maybe get some fresh air, perhaps at altitude, see if that cheers you up.

Let's see. A number of stories have appeared where parents have complained about what their kids are being taught in sex ed. Including one recently from the Isle of Man where kids were told there were 70 genders. This isn't new; people have been talking about stuff like the Gender Unicorn and Mermaids sliding scale of gender identity that goes from Barbie to GI Joe for years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-64811129.amp

There's concern about what kids are being taught by external providers. Part of this is because the material they have on their websites could be considered to be ideological not fact based.

https://archive.is/B8ROn

The government are bringing forward their review to address these concerns. I'm sure we would all want our children's education to be fact based and not driven by ideology, so let's hope they crack on with it as we should have the utmost transparency where kids are concerned.

As I said previously, this issue has arisen because external providers are being used and their agender is not necessarily neutral. It's also very lucrative. If you look at the report you linked to, some of the materials were only made available after Freedom of Information requests. Let's have real transparency about what is being taught and take it from there.

 

[newfhouse]

How is it distinguished from personality? If it exists as a real thing, why don't we all have one?

I would say it is part of personality, not independent from it. If you self identify as a cyclist is that real? Of course it is.

I'd say I have a sexed body and a personality. The sexed body is unchanging

My chromosomal configuration remains intact but my appearance, form and function has changed dramatically over the decades.

and the personality is expressed through choices in clothes, behaviour etc.

Yes, in part.

Can you tell me how one goes about working out what their gender identity is? Without referring to regressive stereotypes about dress or behaviour. From my point of view, there's no 'gender identity' without regressive stereotypes because otherwise where are you getting your concept of what constitutes maleness and femaleness?

As I’ve said, it may well be a social construct but it is no less real or meaningful for that. If your life and opportunities are limited because of your assumed gender that’s clearly as wrong as sex based oppression.

It’s a thought provoking question though, and I will try to give it some thought. My first instinct is to compare it with feeling like a musician because I make sounds that are similar to those of other musicians. Is that regressive? Don’t shoot me, I’m merely thinking aloud at this point.

You've already rejected biology as defining male and female.

I don’t think I have, only that it isn’t the only way to do so. Did you see the TED talk I posted? Is it only one aspect of biology that defines the speaker? Maybe it is more complicated than some would like it to be.

 

[Ian H]

...sliding scale of gender identity that goes from Barbie to GI Joe...

Devoid of all genitalia?