Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Instead of an exclamation, could you perhaps set out what you think is wrong with it? It seems like a perfectly reasonable post to me.

I'm not surprised it sounds reasonable to you. Why do I end up having to mark everybody's homework after they can't be bothered to make an effort?

I made an effort to provide explainers. These were based on facts, not rumours, myths or opinions. Rather sloppily some people on here mistake statements of fact for opinions. If I quote what the legislation says, I'm not giving an opinion of what the law would be if I wrote it, it's a statement. It's tedious and wearisome. After more than 2600 posts some people persist with the same misinformation.

Back to the driving licence extract I posted. If you care to read what it says, it does not say that male driving licences always have a title, it says that only female ones have automatic inclusion.

Winjim had already politely questioned this, and the answer was already given.

So it's not complete rollox. Female licences have the titles, male ones may or may not.

 

[icowden]

The quoted article says that title is automatically included for women. I'll guess this doesn't necessarily mean that it never included for men, just that it is not automatic. I'm going to guess though that the '0' in the relevant position is there?

The quoted article appears to be poor quality journalism and is just a blog that has been reprinted. Not convinced anyone did any actual fact checking.

Then learn to read.

Again. No idea what you are on about. The story is bollocks in multiple ways. Firstly, men's driving licenses have their titles on whether it is Mr, Reverend, Sir or whatever.

Secondly you wouldn't magically design a system to be sexist. There isn't a group of people typing in the details and deciding what goes on the license. It's automated. So either the women in the article *thought* they selected "no title" and didn't, or (and this is the most likely explanation) there was a bug in the system where "no title" was being interpreted (mapped) wrongly and a default title of Mrs was being put there instead.

 

[Ian H]

... Firstly, men's driving licenses have their titles on whether it is Mr, Reverend, Sir or whatever.

Mine doesn't.

 

[monkers]

The quoted article appears to be poor quality journalism and is just a blog that has been reprinted. Not convinced anyone did any actual fact checking.


Again. No idea what you are on about. The story is bollocks in multiple ways. Firstly, men's driving licenses have their titles on whether it is Mr, Reverend, Sir or whatever.

Secondly you wouldn't magically design a system to be sexist. There isn't a group of people typing in the details and deciding what goes on the license. It's automated. So either the women in the article *thought* they selected "no title" and didn't, or (and this is the most likely explanation) there was a bug in the system where "no title" was being interpreted (mapped) wrongly and a default title of Mrs was being put there instead.

Dear God, help me from this onslaught of stupidity.

 

[winjim]

Mine doesn't.

My old (2010 with paper counterpart) one doesn't, my new (2023 card only) one does. I also have a 2015ish one somewhere, currently lost but I don't know what's on it. If anyone, particularly women, has a similar age licence it might be interesting to compare.

 

[monkers]

My old (2010 with paper counterpart) one doesn't, my new (2023 card only) one does. I also have a 2015ish one somewhere, currently lost but I don't know what's on it. If anyone, particularly women, has a similar age licence it might be interesting to compare.

Mine definitely says 'Miss' and has the '5' as per the extract. Thank you for help with this - appreciated.

 

[classic33]

Classic has continually banged the drum for allowing males to be put in women's prisons, including BK, but offered no solution that considers the needs of incarcerated women. Perhaps if there were adequate provision for BK within the mental health service they wouldn't be in the women's prison.

This is also exactly what you do. You aren't happy with there being provision that is exclusively for transwomen and other that is exclusively for biological women. You don't campaign for provision for transgender people, you simply want transwomen to have access to all women's single sex spaces. It's not about people having their needs met, because otherwise you'd be happy with transgender provision, unisex provision and protected provision for women, so you can spare me the moral high-horsing.

Prove that statement or retract it.

I've never done that. I will point out that the laws of the land in which the offences took place have been followed.

The one's mentioned by me are legally women. Whether you like it or not. You have said that trans men knew what they were getting into, and should therefore be in a men's prison, use the men's facilities. And every man should just accept them in their single sex spaces.

Your distinction for single sexed spaces/areas works one way only. You demand that someone who is legally a women be denied their rights to live their life as they want, if it might impede on any possible aspect of yours. You've all but said the only reason for trans women getting a gender recognition certificate is soley to be able to access women only areas. Would that be true for a trans man as well?
Would you be happy if someone, who looked like a man, and for the best part dressed as one, walked into a women only area? Using your argument to date about trans women, it's where they should be. No ifs, no buts, nor even a maybe.

As for Barbie Kardashian, she was at Coovagh House, until the age of 19. Where the courts were applied to, by someone other him(he being under the legal age to make an application) for the gender recognition certificate. What got her transferred to Limerick Prison was the attack on the worker at Coovagh House. Following the court case she was sentenced to a women's prison. In her case, limerick. Which is where the law says a women must be sent, if sentenced to a period in prison.
The name "Barbie" didn't come from the doll with the name either.

 

[winjim]

Mine definitely says 'Miss' and has the '5' as per the extract. Thank you for help with this - appreciated.

Interestingly, 2013 specimen woman's licence from the gov.uk website has no title.

And 2021 version from wikipedia

 

[monkers]

Interestingly, 2013 specimen woman's licence from the gov.uk website has no title.

View attachment 3420

And 2021 version from wikipedia
View attachment 3421

odd.

 

[winjim]

odd.

Yes but who knows if the specimen licence is a true reflection of the ones issued in the real world. Poor old Sarah Morgan seems to have gone through loads of the things anyway.

 

[monkers]

Article in the Guardian from 2017, which is an explainer but may not reflect current practice.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...g-miss-crazy-britains-sexist-driving-licences

 

[icowden]

Dear God, help me from this onslaught of stupidity.

So you can't explain it either? Or instead of being rude, respond to the points. That's how discussions work.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You have said that trans men knew what they were getting into, and should therefore be in a men's prison, use the men's facilities. And every man should just accept them in their single sex spaces.

No. I haven't said that at all. I've said men should decide whether transmen are welcome in their single sex services and facilities. I can't consent on behalf of men anymore than you can consent on behalf of women.

Your distinction for single sexed spaces/areas works one way only. You demand that someone who is legally a women be denied their rights to live their life as they want, if it might impede on any possible aspect of yours.

If there is a clash of rights that situation has to be negotiated and dealt with. Sometimes how you live your life does affect others; what you demand is that everybody has to make sacrifices to accomodate how a small minority want to live theirs.

You've all but said the only reason for trans women getting a gender recognition certificate is soley to be able to access women only areas. Would that be true for a trans man as well?
Would you be happy if someone, who looked like a man, and for the best part dressed as one, walked into a women only area? Using your argument to date about trans women, it's where they should be. No ifs, no buts, nor even a maybe.

No, I haven't. I wouldn't object to a woman using female spaces and services, regardless of what they looked like. Would you object to a non conforming male using male facilities?

As for Barbie Kardashian, she was at Coovagh House, until the age of 19. Where the courts were applied to, by someone other him(he being under the legal age to make an application) for the gender recognition certificate. What got her transferred to Limerick Prison was the attack on the worker at Coovagh House. Following the court case she was sentenced to a women's prison. In her case, limerick. Which is where the law says a women must be sent, if sentenced to a period in prison.
The name "Barbie" didn't come from the doll with the name either.

I haven't said BK being in Limerick's women's prison is illegal. I've said it's wrong to put any male person in a women's prison, including BK. And a GRC (or Irish equivalent) might make them legally a woman in Ireland but it's still morally wrong.

Irish head of state Leo Varadkar seems to be saying violent transwomen shouldn't be in women's jails:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0322/1365692-prison-transgender/

 

[monkers]

Rudeness? I replied in kind. You said what I was posting was rollox, but you hadn't troubled to read that article accurately, or the polite discussion that followed.

Plus it feels a bit of a habit of yours, dragging along behind commenting without either reading properly or giving it much thought.

What you describe as a bug doesn't make sense. What is more likely is inadvertent bias in the programming. This is the more likely cause of the problem.

Also given that the DVLA have received a number of complaints, it seems likely that they have been required to fix it. The extracted article could just be a bit out of date. This would make sense given Winjim's examples, that the earlier licence had no title but the later one does.

What we can take away from this? That gender markers and titles are unnecessary, since the prevalence of titles is variable with their being an option not to have one anyway, and gender markers are coded so that only those people who read blogs know that they are there.

Al Gore Rhythms (sorry) can make processing and decisions faster, but they can create unintended bias that has the appearance at least of sexism or racism. See here ...

https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/1...OqFJy_uWCMpg6-HN91_hf94GAhz4b_AMBoLRZ5Y5oYCo4

 

[classic33]

No. I haven't said that at all. I've said men should decide whether transmen are welcome in their single sex services and facilities. I can't consent on behalf of men anymore than you can consent on behalf of women.

If there is a clash of rights that situation has to be negotiated and dealt with. Sometimes how you live your life does affect others; what you demand is that everybody has to make sacrifices to accomodate how a small minority want to live theirs.

No, I haven't. I wouldn't object to a woman using female spaces and services, regardless of what they looked like. Would you object to a non conforming male using male facilities?

I haven't said BK being in Limerick's women's prison is illegal. I've said it's wrong to put any male person in a women's prison, including BK. And a GRC (or Irish equivalent) might make them legally a woman in Ireland but it's still morally wrong.

Not quite what you said the first, or second time for that matter. You have said we, men, should just accept them. That being the case, as made by yourself, why aren't you willing to accept trans women.

I'm not consenting on behalf of anyone but myself, and speak for no-one but myself. Nor have I made any demands for any minority. You on the other hand...

You really need to recognise that in the eyes of the law, Barbie Kardashian is a women. And in the days to come you'll hear that she's to held in solitary confinement for the duration of her sentence. Away from every other women prisoner in Limerick Prison. That last piece is news from earlier this week.