Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Unless it's encoded in the driver number my driving licence doesn't have sex or gender on it. It can be inferred from my title but that's it. Maybe it's on the DVLA database but it's not on the card itself.

Your suspicion is right, it is encoded. There are youtube clips I've seen of stoppage, you can see the officer moving their thumb across the driver number on the licence to count to the relevant digit.

Wait a minute, does gender even appear on the driving licence?​

At first glance, no, but if you dig a little deeper, yes! Now, if you're a bloke, you may not have noticed this before. That's because, for some reason, only driving licences belonging to females include indications of gender.

For starters, a title field is automatically included on the driving licences of women. In other words, the name is always preceded by 'Miss', 'Mrs', 'Ms', 'Dr'...etc. Driving licences for men, on the other hand, simply state the name without a title.

This has understandably caused some controversy (this is the 21st century, right?), as it seems strange that a woman's marital status needs to be included at all.

The second place gender is revealed on a driving licence is within the driving licence number itself. The 7th and 8th character represent a person's birth month. However, on a woman's driving licence, the 7th character is replaced with '5'. So, if she was born in September, the 7th and 8th characters would read '59', whereas on a man's driving licence it would say '09'.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Decertification of declared sex and/or gender identity on a driving licence or passport won't make a jot of difference to provision in a women's refuge for example. As it stands most are welcoming to trans women anyway even though they could look to exercise their rights under permissible exemptions. Do refuges require proof of biological sex? I don't think they do.

No, they don't but if they wish they can legally restrict their services to biological females. The report that Claude linked to will make this illegal. Should facilities and services that are currently restricted just to transgender people be open to those who aren't trans? I don't think they should. It's not unreasonable that particular groups have their specific needs catered to.

 

[winjim]

Your suspicion is right, it is encoded. There are youtube clips I've seen of stoppage, you can see the officer moving their thumb across the driver number on the licence to count to the relevant digit.

Wait a minute, does gender even appear on the driving licence?​

At first glance, no, but if you dig a little deeper, yes! Now, if you're a bloke, you may not have noticed this before. That's because, for some reason, only driving licences belonging to females include indications of gender.

For starters, a title field is automatically included on the driving licences of women. In other words, the name is always preceded by 'Miss', 'Mrs', 'Ms', 'Dr'...etc. Driving licences for men, on the other hand, simply state the name without a title.

This has understandably caused some controversy (this is the 21st century, right?), as it seems strange that a woman's marital status needs to be included at all.

The second place gender is revealed on a driving licence is within the driving licence number itself. The 7th and 8th character represent a person's birth month. However, on a woman's driving licence, the 7th character is replaced with '5'. So, if she was born in September, the 7th and 8th characters would read '59', whereas on a man's driving licence it would say '09'.

Difficult to spot on mine as it's default male again.

The first point's not quite right though. My title is on there although I don't know if it's optional. It's a very recently replaced licence. My old one, or the paper part anyway, doesn't have a title so maybe they decided that instead of gendering half the population they were going to gender everybody instead, which seems a bit regressive. If the old photocard turns up I'll see what's on that.

Edit: found it and my old photocard from 2010 doesn't have my title. New one from this year does.

 

[monkers]

Difficult to spot on mine as it's default male again.

The first point's not quite right though. My title is on there although I don't know if it's optional. It's a very recently replaced licence. My old one, or the paper part anyway, doesn't have a title so maybe they decided that instead of gendering half the population they were going to gender everybody instead, which seems a bit regressive. If the old photocard turns up I'll see what's on that.

The quoted article says that title is automatically included for women. I'll guess this doesn't necessarily mean that it never included for men, just that it is not automatic. I'm going to guess though that the '0' in the relevant position is there?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Throughout .... etc.

I've spent ages answering the points you make, Classic. Repeating it adds nothing to the thread so I'm afraid I'm not going over it again for you.

 

[winjim]

The quoted article says that title is automatically included for women. I'll guess this doesn't necessarily mean that it never included for men, just that it is not automatic. I'm going to guess though that the '0' in the relevant position is there?

It's a zero or a one, yes. It's not noticable though because it correlates exactly with DOB in my case.

I wonder if title is on the card I lost recently. Will be interesting to see if it turns up. I applied for its replacement online and had to answer a load of questions but I was distracted and can't remember what they were. Don't know if it included title / sex / gender. I don't think they will have taken any new information as it was just to confirm identity to issue the replacement card, it's not a renewal.

 

[monkers]

Throughout the threads on this, here and elsewhere, you make it sound as though those that do get/want to get a gender recognition certificate, are doing it for one reason only. To gain access to women only spaces. You make it sound as though they'll be getting another gender recognition certificate as and when they feel like. And always it's only one way that you're "bothered" about. You have said that trans men should be using the men's facilities, and men should just have to accept it. Trans men "knew what they were applying for, and the possible consequences, so any problem later on is their own fault". Why the difference?
Check your own posts.

We can do the Gaols Act, which you managed to get wrong, insisting that the change was instant the minute the act was passed. It wasn't.
We could go back down the trans prisoners held in Irish prisons. Where you incorrectly stated the wrong numbers, conditions they were held in, the prisons they were held in and why one prisoner had two prison officers escorting them*.

You go down all these routes/roads trying to prove a point, but when they resurface and are questioned on the points you introduced you ignore them. Is this because you know they were wrong/incorrect before you posted them?

Check Coovagh House, Limerick out. Its where Barbie Kardashian was held before the recent court case. Then check your previous answers on this point.



*You were wrong on that one as well.

 

[classic33]

I've spent ages answering the points you make, Classic. Repeating it adds nothing to the thread so I'm afraid I'm not going over it again for you.

That's just it, you've left many unanswered because according to you I was "splitting hairs".

You've been happy to introduce them as you believed they supported your stance. But refuse to answer when it was pointed out you were wrong.

You'll have checked Coovagh House, Limerick out by now then. Or will that be something else that you'll let slip by because it doesn't match your agenda.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You'll have checked Coovagh House, Limerick out by now then. Or will that be something else that you'll let slip by because it doesn't match your agenda.

Looks like Coovagh House is a mental health unit for under 18's. Not surprising the authorities put BK there when under 18. By the time they were over 18, they were in Limerick women's prison as reported here in October 2020:

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/...in-continuing-custody-at-limerick-prison.html

Perhaps you should campaign for better psychiactric provision in Ireland for seriously disturbed people like BK as I would imagine the mental health care they are getting in Limerick women's prison is limited.

 

[monkers]

Looks like Coovagh House is a mental health unit for under 18's. Not surprising the authorities put BK there when under 18. By the time they were over 18, they were in Limerick women's prison as reported here in October 2020:

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/...in-continuing-custody-at-limerick-prison.html

Perhaps you should campaign for better psychiactric provision in Ireland for seriously disturbed people like BK as I would imagine the mental health care they are getting in Limerick women's prison is limited.

The state of this! Could you at least think before you post?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Classic has continually banged the drum for allowing males to be put in women's prisons, including BK, but offered no solution that considers the needs of incarcerated women. Perhaps if there were adequate provision for BK within the mental health service they wouldn't be in the women's prison.

This is also exactly what you do. You aren't happy with there being provision that is exclusively for transwomen and other that is exclusively for biological women. You don't campaign for provision for transgender people, you simply want transwomen to have access to all women's single sex spaces. It's not about people having their needs met, because otherwise you'd be happy with transgender provision, unisex provision and protected provision for women, so you can spare me the moral high-horsing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

World Athletics statement this afternoon. Transwomen who have gone through puberty will be excluded from competing in the female category.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sk...men-from-womens-competition-lord-coe-confirms

 

[icowden]

At first glance, no, but if you dig a little deeper, yes! Now, if you're a bloke, you may not have noticed this before. That's because, for some reason, only driving licences belonging to females include indications of gender.

For starters, a title field is automatically included on the driving licences of women. In other words, the name is always preceded by 'Miss', 'Mrs', 'Ms', 'Dr'...etc. Driving licences for men, on the other hand, simply state the name without a title.

That's a great story but complete rowlocks. My 2021 driving license has Mr on it.

 

[icowden]

The state of this! Could you at least think before you post?

Instead of an exclamation, could you perhaps set out what you think is wrong with it? It seems like a perfectly reasonable post to me.

 

[monkers]

That's a great story but complete rowlocks. My 2021 driving license has Mr on it.

Then learn to read.