Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

The law does not say that trans women have the same biology as other women, it says that they share a gender identity. That's it. This is all that trans women say. Being as self-ID means identifying oneself is trans, then one can not be self-identifying as cis. It's not so hard.

Aurora said ... It's self ID then, but just in law in certain countries. Which means that the biological categories haven't changed (how could they?), which means of course we all remain the sex we were born and there are no subsets of the sexes.

The UK is one of those countries ...

Sing it sister


View: https://media0.giphy.com/media/oCXNel2GbZB7O/giphy.gif

 

[newfhouse]

There are no women trying to prevent trans people meeting together.

Is this really true? It doesn't take elite search skills to find women that think trans people should be put to death just for existing, never mind freely associate or organise.

What is not so great is when you think any of those things should inform laws that have an affect on others. Your gender identity is a personal matter of faith.

So is my belief that theft should be against the law. It's just a feeling that most but not all of us have, reinforced by social conditioning, isn't it?

 

[AuroraSaab]

The UK is one of those countries ...

And yet transmen can't legally inherit titles and even those with GRC and a reissued birth certificate can be excluded from single sex spaces when considered appropriate. So self ID in the UK isn't really actual self ID for all purposes.

 

[classic33]

It's you guys who are saying transmen shouldn't be in women's single sex spaces. I'm saying that women can't consent on your behalf to them being in men's exclusive spaces. A way forward would be to make Male facilities unisex or have a third unisex space. The Open category in sport does the same.

I don't understand what you are asking. Transmen are pretty much the same statistical risk as other women, ie massively lower than the risk men present.

Women's sports can be rough and dangerous. They'll be more dangerous if we allow male bodied people to compete. They will also be less fair.

Funny that with the exception of a couple of people, eg Mack Beggs and Iszak Hennig, most transmen don't choose to switch to the male category to compete. Hennig has dropped down the ratings now they swim in the male section.

I've not said that, please don't say I have.
Why the men's facilities unisex?

You mean as bad as Vicki Bevan, Lucy Letby and britains youngest double murderer. To give just a few examples.

Have a gander at the "gentle womanly sport of Camogie".

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Uvg5EujFA


However, the biggest issue(for me this time) is you went back and edited the post, after your original post had been answered. Given that you've complained about others editing posts, this, post editing, is a clear example of the pot calling the kettle black.


As an aside, mainly because I forgot to put it in the post, did you know the weight of the human soul has been put at 21g.

 

[classic33]

And yet transmen can't legally inherit titles and even those with GRC and a reissued birth certificate can be excluded from single sex spaces when considered appropriate. So self ID in the UK isn't really actual self ID for all purposes.

Not quite true, as this piece proves.
https://www.tatler.com/article/trans-toffs

 

[AuroraSaab]

Is this really true? It doesn't take elite search skills to find women that think trans people should be put to death just for existing, never mind freely associate or organise.

Are they mainstream gender critical feminists? Or are they right wing Christian fundamentalist women? Are they prevalent in the UK? Or are they in the US?

Can you find me a UK transgender meeting where feminists have turned up and banged on the windows? Or a trans person hounded from their job by a campaign of intimidation by gender critical women?

So is my belief that theft should be against the law. It's just a feeling that most but not all of us have, reinforced by social conditioning, isn't it?

Well I think gender identity is a feeling in your head, shaped by sexist ideas and social conditioning. Without stereotypes there would be no gender identity because what is your frame of reference for 'I feel like a man' if not stereotypes? Is it a sound basis for laws that affect others?

Theft being wrong is something that has been arrived at by consensus over a long period. It's against the law because it harms others not just because you personally feel it's wrong, surely.

 

[multitool]

Can you find me a UK transgender meeting where feminists have turned up and banged on the windows?

Why would they? Trans gender people aren't attacking the existence of feminists, or calling them paedophiles and rapists.

 

[newfhouse]

Are they mainstream gender critical feminists? Or are they right wing Christian fundamentalist women? Are they prevalent in the UK? Or are they in the US?

See those goalposts? No, not those ones, the other ones way over there…

Theft being wrong is something that has been arrived at by consensus over a long period.

Yes, just like notions of gender.

 

[classic33]

Are they mainstream gender critical feminists? Or are they right wing Christian fundamentalist women? Are they prevalent in the UK? Or are they in the US?

Can you find me a UK transgender meeting where feminists have turned up and banged on the windows? Or a trans person hounded from their job by a campaign of intimidation by gender critical women?



Well I think gender identity is a feeling in your head, shaped by sexist ideas and social conditioning. Without stereotypes there would be no gender identity because what is your frame of reference for 'I feel like a man' if not stereotypes? Is it a sound basis for laws that affect others?

Theft being wrong is something that has been arrived at by consensus over a long period. It's against the law because it harms others not just because you personally feel it's wrong, surely.

Shoplifting is theft, but is seen as a victimless crime.
Says the one who has been carted off to hospital after shoplifters split my skull.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why the men's facilities unisex?

It's not the men's if it's unisex. It's open for everybody. Mens, Womens, Unisex. If you are insisting on there being only 2 facilities then why can't it be the men's that becomes unisex?

You mean as bad as Vicki Bevan, Lucy Letby and britains youngest double murderer. To give just a few examples.

Yes, women comit murders and sex crimes. They don't comit them in the ratio that men do though.

However, the biggest issue(for me this time) is you went back and edited the post, after your original post had been answered. Given that you've complained about others editing posts, this, post editing, is a clear example of the pot calling the kettle black.

I have never gone back and edited a post to change the tone or the info. I edit for spelling and clarity sometimes, and usually note it. In fact I messaged the mods pre NACA to suggest that the edit window be reduced. It used to be open ended and there were some dodgy edits being made hours and hours after a post.

That's a terrible slur you have made. You're a liar and I demand an immediate retraction. Just joking, Classic. It's your erroneous opinion but it's yours and you are entitled to it.

As an aside, mainly because I forgot to put it in the post, did you know the weight of the human soul has been put at 21g.

What does a gender identity weigh? Depends if it's male or female I suppose.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why would they? Trans gender people aren't attacking the existence of feminists, or calling them paedophiles and rapists.

Because if they were it would show that feminists are actively against trans people rather than pro women's rights.

 

[monkers]

And yet transmen can't legally inherit titles and even those with GRC and a reissued birth certificate can be excluded from single sex spaces when considered appropriate. So self ID in the UK isn't really actual self ID for all purposes.

I'm not sure there is a contention right on inheriting titles. I don't happen to agree with titles, so I'd be inclined to scrap them, but that shouldn't happen on my say so.

Single-sex spaces? Yes can be excluded not just merely when considered 'appropriate' since it must not be a casual process or exercised on some whim, or somebody outside of the management of the organisation. It must be a carefully considered justification as a departure from statute, others is could result in being found unlawful.

Self-Id isn't part of the law in the UK. It doesn't happen. This is despite two select committee panels meeting with all interested parties and making recommendation to government that Self-ID ought be the way forward for the UK. Theresa May accepted the finding but was swiftly booted over Brexit rows before having the chance to implement it. Then we got Johnson.

As we don't have a system of self-Id, we have an outdated invasive and intrusive medicalised system based on an outmoded notion of gender dysphoria being a diagnosable disease. Trans people are experiencing the same kind of regressive attitudes and policies as women's rights did during the struggles. I actually burnt my bra and haven't worn one since - please nobody ask for evidence!

In the UK gender recognition achieved a number of things. Firstly it recognised that the right to marry should not rely on the biological sex alone of the partners. This was 2004, so nine years before same sex marriage became law. Accordingly when the explanatory notes arrived for the earliest recognition of gender between 2006 and 2013, they said that from that day that a trans woman (with a GRC) could only marry a man (biological or trans man with a GRC), and not a woman who is either cis or trans (with a GRC). Since 2013 it has not needed to say such a thing.

The process of gender recognition is purely administrative. It relies on a minimum transition period of two years before application can be made. The evidence is based on socialisation into role. Oddly it requires medical professionals to be the arbiters of that achievement. The 'diagnosis' part is simply a record of the person saying consistently, my self knowledge is that my gender identity is not congruent with my sex. These two parts become the submission. In practice, all that gender recognition achieves is the right to amend the record of birth, and the record of their death - which actually has no detrimental effect on anyone. There is also some stuff about tax and pensions, but nothing of interest to this discussion.

The Scottish Act was not instant Self-Id since it reduced the waiting time from 2 years to 6 months. As an opinion I think that is quite reasonable. In other countries the process can be much shorter. I've stated my own views before. I happen to think that the medical diagnosis part is unnecessary, and should be done away with. I also happen to think a reduction to 6 months is a sensible compromise. I also happen to think that people (not just women) should be able to see that the system is safe. My own preference, and not opposed by any of the trans people I happen to know is that, in place of the medical diagnosis should be a criminal background check, just as if applying for a job, and those people who have a criminal record of sexual or physical violence should be monitored over a longer period and include a form of risk assessment. This is but an opinion, and other people as always are free to have their own opinions.

 

[AuroraSaab]

See those goalposts? No, not those ones, the other ones way over there…


Yes, just like notions of gender.

You're doing the same as others on here, albeit without shouting Nazi fascist. You are conflating every person or group who is against gender ideology, for whatever reason, with UK gender critical feminism.

So K Stock, J K Rowling, Julie Bindell - all women from the Left - can't talk about women's rights because right wing men and women, many in the US, are also talking about it?

Apart from suggesting you think all women are the same the world over, and that somehow right wing men will suddenly listen to feminists, this is a guilt by association/ demand for purity that is demanded from no other movement.

(Edited to add to last para. Hope that's OK...)

 

[monkers]

You're doing the same as others on here, albeit without shouting Nazi fascist. You are conflating every person or group who is against gender ideology, for whatever reason, with UK gender critical feminism.

So K Stock, J K Rowling, Julie Bindell - all women from the Left - can't talk about women's rights because right wing men and women, many in the US, are also talking about it?

This is a guilt by association/ demand for purity that is demanded from no other movement.

Uh oh. You posted an epiphany, but now you are returning to type. Please reread what you wrote earlier, it was rather good.

A reminder, the women's rights movement of which I was a part ended with the EqA 2010 with protections against discrimination.

Women have equality with men. What is missing is the implementation because the Tories don't respect human rights, not just the rights women have under the law; they don't respect the rights of ordinary citizens. The evidence is, well, everywhere.

Women's movements, and yes I still have interest, are focussed on implementation. We are campaigning for action on the implementation of women's rights, rather than campaigning for new women's rights. Every now and again, we need to fight for something more - the 'upskirting' act for example.

Alternative perspective 'the demand for purity' is coming from the gender critical side? Trans women are not biologically pure enough?

 

[classic33]

It's not the men's if it's unisex. It's open for everybody. Mens, Womens, Unisex. If you are insisting on there being only 2 facilities then why can't it be the men's that becomes unisex?


Yes, women comit murders and sex crimes. They don't comit them in the ratio that men do though.

I have never gone back and edited a post to change the tone or the info. I edit for spelling and clarity sometimes, and usually note it. In fact I messaged the mods pre NACA to suggest that the edit window be reduced. It used to be open ended and there were some dodgy edits being made hours and hours after a post.

That's a terrible slur you have made. You're a liar and I demand an immediate retraction. Just joking, Classic. It's your erroneous opinion but it's yours and you are entitled to it.



What does a gender identity weigh? Depends if it's male or female I suppose.

It's not me that's arguing for unisex, it's yourself. But why can't it be be the women's?

They do however seem to pick the truly innocent ones more than men though.
Note the use of the word "seems". This indicates that I've not checked how many were killed. However Lucy Letby has admitted to 14 murders, with at least another 16 that may yet be ascribed to her.

Opinion or fact?
Note the edit time of your own post and the reply time of the response to the original post.

Yet you have a go at others for doing what you yourself have done, more than once.