Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

"Thus a man transitioning to a woman who takes female hormones is not really lowering their testosterone level"

Your words. Not mine. If you wanted to convey the notion you intended you should have written:

"Thus a man transitioning to a woman who takes female hormones is not really lowering their testosterone level to the level of a natal woman".


Female hormones lower testosterone level. Lowering them to the level of a natal woman is something else.

 

[multitool]

I see you are still being pathetic and petty. Too hard to type 7 letters instead of 4?

Most people shorten other people's long forum names. Nobody types Aurorasaab, for example, they type AS or Aurora, and people shorten mine to 'Tool', with the added bonus for them that they think they are slipping in an insult that I hadn't foreseen, or indeed intended, when I chose it.

Stop being such a calf baby

(sorry...couldn't resist it)

 

[matticus]

Again in the news today we have an example of that:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65451979

Staff were "not comfortable with her views on transgender issues". Sorry - I wasn't aware that venue staff were there to approve the acts appearing at the venue. They can choose to work there or not. Whether it's Joanna Cherry, Roy Chubby Brown, Rishi Sunak or the Pope, they should be allowed to book the venue and do their performance. The audience can choose to watch them or not. This new puritanism does not sit well with me.

It seems some are in denial that this stuff is happening. Whether you call it "cancel culture" or some other wording, it could not be more blatant:

In a statement The Stand said: "Following extensive discussions with our staff it has become clear that a number of key operational staff, including venue management and box office personnel, are unwilling to work on this event.

"We will ensure that their views are respected. We will not compel our staff to work on this event and so have concluded that the event is unable to proceed on a properly staffed, safe and legally compliant basis."

 

[fozy tornip]

You boys alright for ice cream and Tizer?

 

[multitool]

It seems some are in denial that this stuff is happening. Whether you call it "cancel culture" or some other wording, it could not be more blatant:

The staff do not want to work the event.

There could be a number of reasons. They might all be trans. They might not be trans, but they might view Cherry as part of a movement that is persecuting a minority. They might be scared of GC activists. They might be scared of TRAs who will inevitably picket the event.

Ask yourself this: If you worked there, would you want to work that event? I wouldn't, and that has nothing to do with my views on the effect of TW on the position of women in society. I wouldn't want to staff a Milwall match either.

As I said upthread, the end result of this looks like much more exposure for Cherry than she would have otherwise had. It's not as if people are being silenced. Media is full of the likes of Cherry, JKR and KJK. The silence is from the trans voice.

 

[icowden]

Ask yourself this: If you worked there, would you want to work that event? I wouldn't, and that has nothing to do with my views on the effect of TW on the position of women in society. I wouldn't want to staff a Milwall match either.

But we don't stop Milwall playing because there are no staff.

I suppose, to be fair to the Stand, what they said was:

We will not compel our staff to work on this event and so have concluded that the event is unable to proceed on a properly staffed, safe and legally compliant basis."

What they didn't say was whether they had tried particularly hard to find staff to stand in.

 

[multitool]

But we don't stop Milwall playing because there are no staff.

We haven't stopped Cherry. The staff have by choosing to withdraw their labour, and the management accepting it presumably because they respect their staff and consider their well being. And if the staff at Milwall decided the risks were too high the same thing would happen.

 

[multitool]

It does seem an odd choice of venue given that Cherry doesn't come across as a comedian.

There's a lot of politicking going on. Both sides want to cast themselves as oppressed, and the GCs want to promote the notion that they are being silenced, even though they always seem to have instant and plentiful access to media to tell us this...otherwise how would we know?

The GCs know that they will be picketed, because, let's be honest, the TRAs don't actually seem to have any access to media exposure so what alternatives do they have?

It's not a balanced so-called debate. On the one side you have a gaggle of blue-haired people whose names we will never know and who never actually get to speak in the media, and on the other we have a KC media-savvy Scottish politician with a national profile, a billionaire author, a peroxide nazi with right-wing TV pundits on speed dial, a multi-millionaire former world tennis champion and so on.

It would absolutely not surprise me if Cherry knew exactly how this would end.

 

[monkers]

How are transwomen not male bodied? They have XY chromosomes. Literally every cell in their body is coded as a male of the species. You may not like the term, but it is accurate. A man can have surgery and take hormones, but biologically it does not turn them magically into a women. Their body, muscle structures etc are all male.

Women have wombs, uterus and ovaries. Most of them have a monthly bleed and can create a new human inside them. This is something that no-one born male can ever experience. The best someone born male can do is to adjust their body to look more female. It is cosmetic, not biological. This is one of the points that infuriates many women. You may be born male, and aspire to live as a woman might live, but medical science cannot, at this time, turn you into a woman.

This is not to say, of course, that we should deny anyone who wants to, the ability to live their lives as they want. Personally I am a little bit cautious of the surgical aspect of transitioning, purely because we do not carry out massive surgical alteration for any other form of dysmorphia. Usually surgical intervention is only carried out to restore the body or to allow it to continue to develop in the way that it should be developing. But, I am happy with myself, and if there is a choice between surgery or potential suicide, then I can see the case for it - but I do think that it should be reserved as a last resort treatment.

I have said before that I value your contributions to this topic, and that is precisely because you are someone who is in a position to know a lot about what someone transitioning goes through. It can never be easy. This is not a topic which is going to have any easy answers, but I do think that shutting down discussion is wrong.

Again in the news today we have an example of that:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65451979

Staff were "not comfortable with her views on transgender issues". Sorry - I wasn't aware that venue staff were there to approve the acts appearing at the venue. They can choose to work there or not. Whether it's Joanna Cherry, Roy Chubby Brown, Rishi Sunak or the Pope, they should be allowed to book the venue and do their performance. The audience can choose to watch them or not. This new puritanism does not sit well with me.

Thanks for the anatomy lesson (please note sarcasm). What's wrong with saying 'male-bodied' at each opportunity?

Maybe get an emotional intelligence implant?

Maybe we should all have our chromosomes tested and have the results tattooed on our foreheads? Maybe seedless men should have the word 'Jaffa' tattooed there too, just so we know. It's important that we all know these things about each other, right? I mean how can we other people who fit outside the white supremacy norms without knowing?

I've not just treated with you my usual degree of respect, because I'm trying to make the point, one doesn't need to know that level of information about each other before acting respectfully. All one needs to say is 'trans women' then we know as much as we need to know.

 

[monkers]

If only you had googled a bit longer you would have discovered that whilst testosterone levels in transwomen do lower, they do not lower to those of biological women. This is one of the difficulties with allowing transwomen to compete in women's sport:

Oh dear. After all that mansplaining anatomy lesson too.

Trans women who have undergone GRS have no gametes and nil testosterone. Cis women have natural testosterone.

Within the cis norm ranges for testosterone, men averagely do have higher levels. However some men have low levels, some women have high levels, meaning that there is a percentage of women who have higher testosterone levels than some men. You're welcome.

 

[multitool]

You boys alright for ice cream and Tizer?

It's Top Deck and KP Sky Divers in here laddie

 

[theclaud]

They can choose to work there or not.

I know it's not the main point of what you're saying, but for me stuff like this is revealing - same goes for Aurora's obvious distaste for climate activists.

 

[matticus]

stuff like this is revealing

That's a bit too cryptic for me. Has 'den actually said anything you want to comment on?

 

[AuroraSaab]

My distaste is for people breaking the law in a democracy where you can change things within the law, especially if it causes danger and hurt to others rather than just inconvenience. If it's acceptable to block the road to Stop Oil, it's also acceptable to block entrances to clinics to Stop Abortion surely? You can't excuse one kind of activism when it's for a cause you like but decry it when it's for a cause you don't.

Re: Joanne Cherry. The laws on discrimination are there to protect everybody; the people whose views we agree with and the people whose views we don't. If the staff had said 'We don't want to serve gay people', we would all rightly be condemning them. The venue might be able to get out of it by claiming it was cancelled because they can't staff the event but you can't refuse a service on the basis of not liking their beliefs, if holding those beliefs is allowable under UK law.

Julie Bindel and Nottingham library service:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-63176594.amp

Trans people get coverage of their opinions in the UK, and get lots of coverage in the US - Veronica Ivy was given a long slot on the Trevor Noah show last week. Dylan Mulvaney met Biden and has 10 million TikTok followers.

India Willoughby is frequently on GB news, Lorraine, and Loose Women. Peter Tatchell is often platformed as an advocate on news shows. Eddie Izzard hasn't exactly been under the radar.

As I've said before, it's perfectly possible to be cancelled in one area and not another. You can be hounded out of your job but still write books. You can be cancelled as an author but still keep your day job. You don't have to be completely financially ruined to experience being cancelled.

 

[icowden]

Trans women who have undergone GRS have no gametes and nil testosterone. Cis women have natural testosterone.

Researchers disagree with you:-
https://www.endocrinepractice.org/article/S1530-891X(20)35396-9/fulltext

Among a cohort of transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogen, the highest suppressing quartile could reliably achieve testosterone levels in the female range at virtually all times. The second highest suppressing quartile could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time. One quartile was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

Or maybe this from NCBI:

3.1. Difficulties in Achieving Female Levels of Circulating Testosterone in Estrogen-Treated Transwomen​

The estrogen treatment regimens used in transgender women aim to lower testosterone levels to within the female range (<1 nmol/L) [52]. However, hormone therapy alone has met limited success in suppressing testosterone levels, with many transgender women failing to achieve the desired level. In recent studies of transgender women, one quartile failed to achieve any significant suppression [53] and one-third failed to suppress testosterone levels despite achieving desired estradiol levels [54]. Another study reported that only 49% of transgender women showed suppressed testosterone concentrations after 6 months or more of estrogen with the addition of antiandrogen therapy [55]. Notably, Jarin and colleagues show that testosterone levels in transgender women decreased significantly from former male levels, however nearly all participants maintained their testosterone levels above the female range [56]. Whether elite transwoman athletes experience the same difficulties in suppressing testosterone levels with estrogen therapy has not been reported.

As I said, transwomen generally retain a higher level of testosterone than women.
That said:-

There is an estrogen therapy-related change in transgender women if treated for longer than 12 months with a decreased proneness towards anger and aggressiveness

But

While more research is required for definitive answers, the current data demonstrates that estrogen therapy in transwomen can drive some brain structures towards that of the biological female [71,72,73] but does not do so quickly and appears to not reformat the sex-typical male brain responses into a female-like brain. This is compatible with the concept that both the in utero and perinatal surges of testosterone secretion occurring in males drive permanent sex differences in brain structure and function which are apparent in young boys before puberty