Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

It's you who are making the assertion that transwomen are somehow magically different from other biological men. It's really up to you to prove that hypothesis surely? It should be you who has to prove why we should treat them differently from other men, in regards to prisons or anywhere else.

The onus should be on you, but regardless here's the Swedish study (again) that shows male to female transgender people offend at higher rates than their birth sex control group. Also concludes that surgery does not seem to make trans people happier.

View attachment 3751
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21364939/


The UK prison stats give us a bit of a picture for here, albeit an incomplete one. This is from the court ruling that you yourself posted earlier:

View attachment 3756

81 out of 163 is 49%. So 49% of transgender prisoners were sex offenders.


View attachment 3755

Whereas the usual % of males serving sentences for sex offences is 20%.

I have no trouble whatsoever in saying that I don't think all these offenders are genuinely body/gender dysphoric. I think they are gaming the system to get a softer time in jail.

Similar outcome in Canada, which has self ID.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/toront...wcm/96997ecf-e4f8-415d-af9f-cee3d4ba5524/amp/

View attachment 3757

If you are going to say that 'You are who you say you are' and accept every man who says he is a woman, I think you have to accept that the available data shows that (those who claim to be) transwomen offend at least at a similar rate to other biological men.

You need to make a good case for why they should be treated differently from other biological males. I don't think you have so far.

From the bottom of that first picture you posted,
"Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.".

 

[multitool]

Don't worry, I explained this to her a few months ago when I foolishly thought she was an honest interlocutor.

 

[AuroraSaab]

This isn't the data I asked for.

I'd like to see UK data for the last few (say four years).

I'd like to see if there is high vulnerability of attack from trans women on cis women in UK prisons.

I gave you the data on transwoman offending that you asked for.
You know as well as I do that the data on assaults by transwomen on women in prison isn't readily available. I'm not sure they even keep such data. Absence of the data certainly doesn't prove your remarkable assertion that transwomen are different from other men.

The authors of that Swedish study go to great lengths to point out its limitations, and it certainly should not be used for the ends that Aurora is attempting.

And yet the conclusion is plainly there in their own words in the actual research.

Analysis of the research and appraisal of one of the author's later comments can be downloaded here at the bottom, for those who haven't already lost the will to live.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.or...ejne-et-als-findings-on-criminal-convictions/

Once again though, it's you two making the remarkable assertion, without evidence, that something magical happens when a man says 'I am a woman' that means they shouldn't be treated as we treat other biological males.

 

[multitool]

Something happens to trans men though, doesn't it

 

[icowden]

Not a euphemism - I'm saying it as it is. You are taking sides based on sympathy for a woman for getting it in the neck. AS has been more than adequately heard. Repeatedly evidence is put before her that her 'facts' are wrong - but this changes nothing.

No - you have presented evidence that you disagree with what she is stating. I don't think it is possible to be definitive either way in most cases.

 

[icowden]

Am I only allowed to respond to it politely even after so many of these posts calling trans women 'transwomen' (deliberate), 'male-bodied', men, along with all her assertions about violence against women that they are supposedly committing?

How are transwomen not male bodied? They have XY chromosomes. Literally every cell in their body is coded as a male of the species. You may not like the term, but it is accurate. A man can have surgery and take hormones, but biologically it does not turn them magically into a women. Their body, muscle structures etc are all male.

Women have wombs, uterus and ovaries. Most of them have a monthly bleed and can create a new human inside them. This is something that no-one born male can ever experience. The best someone born male can do is to adjust their body to look more female. It is cosmetic, not biological. This is one of the points that infuriates many women. You may be born male, and aspire to live as a woman might live, but medical science cannot, at this time, turn you into a woman.

This is not to say, of course, that we should deny anyone who wants to, the ability to live their lives as they want. Personally I am a little bit cautious of the surgical aspect of transitioning, purely because we do not carry out massive surgical alteration for any other form of dysmorphia. Usually surgical intervention is only carried out to restore the body or to allow it to continue to develop in the way that it should be developing. But, I am happy with myself, and if there is a choice between surgery or potential suicide, then I can see the case for it - but I do think that it should be reserved as a last resort treatment.

I have said before that I value your contributions to this topic, and that is precisely because you are someone who is in a position to know a lot about what someone transitioning goes through. It can never be easy. This is not a topic which is going to have any easy answers, but I do think that shutting down discussion is wrong.

Again in the news today we have an example of that:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65451979

Staff were "not comfortable with her views on transgender issues". Sorry - I wasn't aware that venue staff were there to approve the acts appearing at the venue. They can choose to work there or not. Whether it's Joanna Cherry, Roy Chubby Brown, Rishi Sunak or the Pope, they should be allowed to book the venue and do their performance. The audience can choose to watch them or not. This new puritanism does not sit well with me.

 

[multitool]

And what would your response be if it had been a 'white lives matter' meeting, and non-white staff expressed concern?

Are you now suggesting that venues are compelled to host anyone and everyone?

Incidentally, have you not noticed that Joanna Cherry is now splashed all over the state broadcaster's website? That is her level of exposure. Where are the trans voices on that same website?

 

[icowden]

Something happens to trans men though, doesn't it

Yes. And that would be a really interesting area of science to research. One suggestion I have seen is around testosterone and it's role with aggression. We know that testosterone increases aggression and sex drive, and most studies support a link between adult criminality and testosterone.

Men already experience much higher levels of testosterone than women. Thus a man transitioning to a woman who takes female hormones is not really lowering their testosterone level which remains higher than a natal woman, but a woman transitioning to a man is increasing the amount of a hormone in their body that they are not used to.

Thus it is not unexpected that crime rates for transwomen remain at the level of offending for males generally, whereas for transmen, the level of offending increases.

 

[icowden]

And what would your response be if it had been a 'white lives matter' meeting, and non-white staff expressed concern?

I would have ensured their safety by liaising with the local Police to establish whether there was a threat of violence towards staff, invited anyone concerned not to work that event, increased security and charged the group accordingly.

That said, I'm not aware of a White Lives Matter movement in the UK, nor that they have been "non-platformed". Is this one of those straw men you are so fond of?

 

[multitool]

Men already experience much higher levels of testosterone than women. Thus a man transitioning to a woman who takes female hormones is not really lowering their testosterone level which remains higher than a natal woman, but a woman transitioning to a man is increasing the amount of a hormone in their body that they are not used to.

Thus it is not unexpected that crime rates for transwomen remain at the level of offending for males generally, whereas for transmen, the level of offending increases.

"Estrogen exerts negative feedback at the hypothalamic-pituitary level, leading to decreased endogenous testosterone production from the gonads, along with feminizing effects by action at estrogen receptors."

It took me 5 seconds to Google this

 

[multitool]

That said, I'm not aware of a White Lives Matter movement in the UK, nor that they have been "non-platformed". Is this one of those straw men you are so fond of?

https://www.google.com/search?q=whi...AQ&biw=360&bih=632&dpr=3#imgrc=FrVHaNkWxGNNqM

icow not aware≠ does not exist

 

[icowden]

It took me 5 seconds to Google this

If only you had googled a bit longer you would have discovered that whilst testosterone levels in transwomen do lower, they do not lower to those of biological women. This is one of the difficulties with allowing transwomen to compete in women's sport:

The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women.

 

[multitool]

If only you had googled a bit longer you would have discovered that whilst testosterone levels in transwomen do lower, they do not lower to those of biological women

Ah, changing goalposts. I see.

 

[icowden]

icow not aware≠ does not exist

I didn't say that it didn't. I said I wasn't aware of a movement. You insist on using these black / white arguments. It's a bit tedious.
I agree that there is a small group of Tommy Robinson nobcheeses who have seen WLM in America and tried to copy it, with very little effect.

I asked you to show where a WLM group had booked a venue and not been allowed to use it. I also think that's a bit different to a woman wanting to talk about her life and views.

I don't agree with no-platforming and censorship.
I see you are still being pathetic and petty. Too hard to type 7 letters instead of 4?

 

[icowden]

Ah, changing goalposts. I see.

No. Same goalpost. You just read something that wasn't there.
I have highlighted the relevant bits of my post:-

Thus a man transitioning to a woman who takes female hormones is not really lowering their testosterone level which remains higher than a natal woman, but a woman transitioning to a man is increasing the amount of a hormone in their body that they are not used to.

I did not state that testosterone does not reduce in transwomen. What I said is that it does not reduce to the levels experienced by women. It's also worth pointing out that unless you are taking up elite sport, there is also no *need* to lower testosterone, whereas for transmen testosterone *must* be raised.