Gender again. Sorry!

[Ian H]

Bridges has said the BC announcement is
A violent act
And
genocidal

I don't know how to discuss that 🤷

P.s. can she compete in men's races stilla bit more? That's not clear in the press I've seen.
(She was a junior mens record holder in 2018!)

Having read a bit more it seems that the men's category has been renamed as 'open'. Which effectively stops meaningful competition for trans women (have you ever watched a mixed crit race?).

 

[newfhouse]

“Wait a second”, I said. “Is sexual orientation innate, something we are born with?” My students nodded readily.

Sexual orientation is not the same as either gender or biological sex. Come on Unkers, this is such basic stuff that your misrepresentation must be wilful.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Won't be universally popular on here
https://www.tvguide.co.uk/m-detail/5123466/83294049/gender-wars

 

[AuroraSaab]

What she does do is present an idealised view of women's spaces, and indeed the women in them, in order to try and bolster up a theoretical case that TW are disruptive, even though this is not borne out in reality.

Men are 'disruptive'. Women's spaces exclude men, when necessary, including the men that you think are special and shouldn't have to abide by the conventions that we ask all other men to abide by.

Why do you think that there are such distinctions as 'lipstick lesbians' and 'diesel dykes'?

Because the gay community is not immune to horrible stereotyping. How you think an ideology that says 'This girl likes trucks and football... might be a boy' does anything but perpetuate these regressive stereotypes I can't imagine.

Having read a bit more it seems that the men's category has been renamed as 'open'. Which effectively stops meaningful competition for trans women (have you ever watched a mixed crit race?).

How does it stop meaningful competition? Transwomen can ride in the Open category with riders that they have no advantage over. Emily Bridges set a Junior UK record that no adult female pro cyclist has beaten. I honestly can't see why the Open category isn't a fair solution, other than it does not provide the validation some people seek.

 

[classic33]

Men are 'disruptive'. Women's spaces exclude men, when necessary, including the men that you think are special and shouldn't have to abide by the conventions that we ask all other men to abide by.

If you're excluding all men, what other men are left to abide by the "rules you ask all other men to abide by"?

Because the gay community is not immune to horrible stereotyping. How you think an ideology that says 'This girl likes trucks and football... might be a boy' does anything but perpetuate these regressive stereotypes I can't imagine.

How does it stop meaningful competition? Transwomen can ride in the Open category with riders that they have no advantage over. Emily Bridges set a Junior UK record that no adult female pro cyclist has beaten. I honestly can't see why the Open category isn't a fair solution, other than it does not provide the validation some people seek.

Is it legal?
It applies to trans women, but not trans men.
To be fair, and reasonable, it should have trans men now racing in the women's races. Not in the newly renamed category.

 

[monkers]

Because the gay community is not immune to horrible stereotyping. How you think an ideology that says 'This girl likes trucks and football... might be a boy' does anything but perpetuate these regressive stereotypes I can't imagine.

Clearly you are more connected to Karen in the film clip than any other community.

Is that what you understand by gay identities? Within the lesbian community these are terms of affection and something we laugh about - not hateful stereotypes. What the other load of sh1te you typed had to do with the issue heaven knows - but this is just so you presuming to know how communities work that you have no knowledge of.

 

[multitool]

Emily Bridges set a Junior UK record that no adult female pro cyclist has beaten. I honestly can't see why the Open category isn't a fair solution, other than it does not provide the validation some people seek.

That junior record was in a man's race as a man. In 2018, prior to hormone therapy.

And what was Emily Bridges first result in her first women's race, after 2 years of hormone treatment?

43 out of 45.

Yeah. I know. She pushed out the three women who should have come last instead of her.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Clearly you are more connected to Karen in the film clip than any other community.

Is that what you understand by gay identities? Within the lesbian community these are terms of affection and something we laugh about - not hateful stereotypes. What the other load of sh1te you typed had to do with the issue heaven knows - but this is just so you presuming to know how communities work that you have no knowledge of.

The lesbians I know certainly don't use those terms about other gay women. But then, my lesbian friends are like Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindell, Alison Bailey and other lesbian activists; they don't think transwomen can be lesbians either, so I suspect your community and theirs are not the same.

To be fair, and reasonable, it should have trans men now racing in the women's races. Not in the newly renamed category.

Transmen who aren't on testosterone are eligible to ride in the Female category or the Open category. If they are on hormones they have to ride in the Open category, due to the advantage testosterone brings. There are lots of transwomen who ride in the Female category in the US and UK (not all in British Cycling events obviously) but I'm not aware of any transmen who choose to ride in the Male category.

(Edited for clarity)

 

[classic33]

Transmen who aren't on testosterone have to ride in the Female category. If they are on hormones they have to ride in the Open category, due to the advantage testosterone brings. There are lots of transwomen who ride in the Female category in the US and UK (not all in British Cycling events obviously) but I'm not aware of any transmen who choose to ride in the Male category.

Where does the new rules say that? Direct to the piece not a link to a third party site, which quotes it.

You are making it sound less legal.

 

[AuroraSaab]

That junior record was in a man's race as a man. In 2018, prior to hormone therapy.

Their sex hasn't changed. Hormone therapy doesn't mitigate all the advantages of a male body. There is no science that proves advantage is removed.

And what was Emily Bridges first result in her first women's race? 43 out of 45.

Yeah. I know. She pushed out the three women who should have come last instead of her.

If Bridges had come 43rd on an electric bike that would have been ok, I suppose. You really struggle to grasp the principle of fairness in sport - specifically that it is not decided by outcome. Unfair advantage is unfair advantage. It doesn't matter if you come first, last, or fall off your bike after 50 yards and don't finish.

 

[multitool]

Hang on, one minute (s)he's setting a male record, never beaten by a woman, and the next she's getting smashed by almost all women. Where is the unfair advantage?

You can't have it both ways, even though we know that is your thing.

 

[classic33]

If Bridges had come 43rd on an electric bike that would have been ok, I suppose. You really struggle to grasp the principle of fairness in sport - specifically that it is not decided by outcome. Unfair advantage is unfair advantage. It doesn't matter if you come first, last, or fall off your bike after 50 yards and don't finish.

That's an hypothetical question, by your standards.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Where does the new rules say that? Direct to the piece not a link to a third party site, which quotes it.

You are making it sound less legal.

Here in their document:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/a...ender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policies-0

I've edited my earlier post to make it clear that any females, including transmen, can ride in the female category if they wish or in the Open category if not taking hormones.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Hang on, one minute (s)he's setting a male record, never beaten by a woman, and the next she's getting smashed by almost all women. Where is the unfair advantage?

The advantage is in the continued advantage of having a male body. It doesn't matter whether Bridges comes last or first. 'It's only cheating if you win' is what you seem to be saying.

Sports ethics philosopher Jon Pike on fairness in sports:

https://sex-matters.org/posts/sport/fairness-matters-in-sport/

 

[classic33]

Transmen who aren't on testosterone are eligible to ride in the Female category. If they are on hormones they have to ride in the Open category, due to the advantage testosterone brings. There are lots of transwomen who ride in the Female category in the US and UK (not all in British Cycling events obviously) but I'm not aware of any transmen who choose to ride in the Male category.

(Edited for clarity)

There is no mention of the piece you've edited out* then?

*Is that the reason for "edited for clarity"?