Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

The advantage is in the continued advantage of having a male body. It doesn't matter whether Bridges comes last or first. 'It's only cheating if you win' is what you seem to be saying.

Sports ethics philosopher Jon Pike on fairness in sports:

https://sex-matters.org/posts/sport/fairness-matters-in-sport/

You are trying to play a little trick here.

You're citing then 2018 win (in unaltered body) and comparing it to female failure to match time to show male advantage. And then pretending that that male advantage was still there 3 years later after 2 years of hormone treatment. It wasn't. Because if it was Emily would not have come 43rd out of 45 in a woman's race.

It has to be tangible, otherwise it doesn't exist.

Schrodinger's Male Advantage

I'm beginning to see a pattern here with your relationship with things that don't actually exist.

 

[multitool]

.Sports ethics philosopher Jon Pike on fairness in sports:

https://sex-matters.org/posts/sport/fairness-matters-in-sport/

Oh that Dr Jon Pike.

From the 'Gender Critical Unit', close anti-trans colleague of Kathleen Stock, spends all his time obsessing about TW on Twitter. Not actually a scientist. That one.

(this is how it goes, isn't it, Aurora? I'm keen to learn your debating tactics)

 

[monkers]

The lesbians I know certainly don't use those terms about other gay women. But then, my lesbian friends are like Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindell, Alison Bailey and other lesbian activists; they don't think transwomen can be lesbians either, so I suspect your community and theirs are not the same.

You said it. They are activists. I am not an activist, I live an ordinary life as a woman in the LGBTiQ community.

I can see why you associate with them and call them your friends, all people motivated by trans hate, no other connection.

 

[theclaud]

I don't denigrate them. I'm saying they have an unfair advantage. Your definition of 'woman' rests on shared experiences, not biology then, even though those non biological experiences could vary widely. Your belief on the inclusion of dsd athletes and transwomen in the female category for sports is held for moral reasons then, not scientific ones? Would that be fair to say?

Once again, I have never said, and I do not believe, that trans women should be permitted by virtue of IDing as women to compete in existing women's categories at all levels of sport. I have said that we could reconsider the wholesale gender or sex segregation of sports, which in some cases might involve integration (especially at junior and recreational levels) or other forms of categorisation (performance or weight divisions etc). It suits you to pretend that entire question (what is a man/woman) is scientific. You're wrong, of course - it's a political question. I don't know where you got 'moral' from, but the treatment of athletes like Semenya is clearly unethical, and the shifting goalposts of participation rules for trans people are also an issue of fairness.

 

[Ian H]

Men are 'disruptive'. Women's spaces exclude men, when necessary, including the men that you think are special and shouldn't have to abide by the conventions that we ask all other men to abide by.



Because the gay community is not immune to horrible stereotyping. How you think an ideology that says 'This girl likes trucks and football... might be a boy' does anything but perpetuate these regressive stereotypes I can't imagine.



How does it stop meaningful competition? Transwomen can ride in the Open category with riders that they have no advantage over. Emily Bridges set a Junior UK record that no adult female pro cyclist has beaten. I honestly can't see why the Open category isn't a fair solution, other than it does not provide the validation some people seek.

If you'd raced or organised races, you'd know.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You're wrong, of course - it's a political question. I don't know where you got 'moral' from, but the treatment of athletes like Semenya is clearly unethical, and the shifting goalposts of participation rules for trans people are also an issue of fairness.

What's unethical is that it ever got to this stage. Dsd athletes have always been an occasional issue, though much bigger of late. Those with 5-ard have biologically male advantage though and groups like the IOC should have acted more quickly.

I say 'moral' because you seemed to be suggesting that dsd athletes should be admitted to the female category on the basis of having been raised as girls (through no fault of their own obviously).

You're citing then 2018 win (in unaltered body) and comparing it to female failure to match time to show male advantage. And then pretending that that male advantage was still there 3 years later after 2 years of hormone treatment. It wasn't. Because if it was Emily would not have come 43rd out of 45 in a woman's race.

There no evidence that retained male advantage disappears after hormones. How could it? They don't reduce your lung capacity or change your connective tissue. They don't change the angle of your hips or the size of your heart.

The advantage reduces somewhat but does not disappear:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...tment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

It's not all about hormones and testosterone suppression. It's about the advantage that testosterone has fueled and which cannot be taken away.

 

[monkers]

It's not all about hormones and testosterone suppression. It's about the advantage that testosterone has fueled and which cannot be taken away.

This is unproven as a complete picture. You should return to listen to Pippa York, the only elite level former rider that can speak from the lived experience of testosterone suppression on performance.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If you'd raced or organised races, you'd know.

I'd be interested to know. Female category, Open category. Why would it make much of a difference to how things are now? Except it's fairer for women.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You said it. They are activists. I am not an activist, I live an ordinary life as a woman in the LGBTiQ community.
I can see why you associate with them and call them your friends, all people motivated by trans hate, no other connection.

They are lesbians. They are not my friends lol. Bindel is a bit shouty, but Kathleen Stock seems great. They think lesbians shouldn't have to include males in their groups and that lesbian means same sex attracted not same gender attracted. Other gay people might think differently but I don't think their view is unreasonable or 'trans hate'.

This is unproven as a complete picture. You should return to listen to Pippa York, the only elite level former rider that can speak from the lived experience of testosterone suppression on performance.

Yes, and York's experience is just that - it's not objective, it's personal and anecdotal. Better just to look at the results when transwomen have a long period of competing in the female category in sports - and guess what, they might be a bit slower than in the male category, but they are still placing higher in the women's.

The comparator is not their performance against themselves, but their performance against females. It's why we have categories (sex, weight, age) to begin with. You don't let a 25 year old ride in the Male 60 - 70 age class class because he feels like his meds are making him a bit slower.

 

[monkers]

my lesbian friends are like Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindell, Alison Bailey and other lesbian activists;

They are lesbians. They are not my friends lol.

Another game of switcheroo.

What a waste of anyone's time discussion with you is. Contradictory, hypocritical, untruthful. Everything you say - It's all a mask for bigotry.

Even on the simplest of matters you can't present a consistent story.

You've even tried to tell me that the lesbian community are hateful, but activists like Stock, Bindell, Bailey are not. You have no knowledge of the LGBTiQ community - we mostly don't share your bigotry.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Switcheroo? I said I have lesbian friends. Bindel and Stock are lesbians, but not amongst my lesbian friends, though my friends share their views. Quite why you think this simple fact is some sort of gotcha, God knows.

I have never said the lesbian community are hateful. Lesbians are not one homogeneous group. Some share Stock and Bindels views, some don't.

 

[multitool]

The advantage reduces somewhat but does not disappear:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...tment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

It's not all about hormones and testosterone suppression. It's about the advantage that testosterone has fueled and which cannot be taken away.

From unbeatable record as a man, to coming 3rd from last, 43/45, as a woman.

That's some incredible "retained male advantage".

 

[AndyRM]

Hormone therapy is interesting. Having witnessed it first hand I have seen the drastic effects it has on physical and mental health.

 

[classic33]

What's unethical is that it ever got to this stage. Dsd athletes have always been an occasional issue, though much bigger of late. Those with 5-ard have biologically male advantage though and groups like the IOC should have acted more quickly.

I say 'moral' because you seemed to be suggesting that dsd athletes should be admitted to the female category on the basis of having been raised as girls (through no fault of their own obviously).



There no evidence that retained male advantage disappears after hormones. How could it? They don't reduce your lung capacity or change your connective tissue. They don't change the angle of your hips or the size of your heart.

The advantage reduces somewhat but does not disappear:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...tment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

It's not all about hormones and testosterone suppression. It's about the advantage that testosterone has fueled and which cannot be taken away.

Could that be because 5-ard(5-alpha reductase deficiency)
"...is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes)."

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/

A reminder of what was said earlier
"It's bonkers that we are even discussing people with what can be serious medical conditions just in order to bolster the argument..."

 

[classic33]

I'd be interested to know. Female category, Open category. Why would it make much of a difference to how things are now? Except it's fairer for women.

Maybe, maybe not.
If you have a trans man, not on testosterone, riding in the women's category on a regular basis, how long before questions are raised about them competing in the wrong section/class?
Especially if there is a case of sour grapes going round.