Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

But children and young people are given they care they require professionally. There may be unscrupulous people around who take advantage, but they are nowhere near as prevalent as you seem to think.

We know from the emails that the Tavistock clinic were forced to release the other week that they were allowing Mermaids to refer children directly, after their own GP had said no. That in itself is a massive failing of safeguarding. People who have been through the system seem to be saying they weren't properly assessed for their other issues - Keira Bell says she was put on puberty blockers after 3 one hour meetings. Dr Michael Webberly was suspended for doling out hormones without proper assessment:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...nge-drugs-private-online-GenderGp-clinic.html

If they were being given thorough and appropriate care there wouldn't be any detransitioners, certainly not ones who had been through surgery in their teens and early twenties. The affirmation model pretty much excludes 'appropriate' because it doesn't allow exploration of the young person's other issues.

If the service was so good, they wouldn't be closing it and changing to a holistic model.

Doesn't it worry you that many of the Tavistock kids were same sex attracted? Without medical intervention they might well have grown up to be gay.

I'm pretty sure that government data was based on the outcome of this survey alone since we didn't have a system of recording gender identity in place previously.

Sounds very, very unlikely that the government's official data on trans prisoners is based on their own self-ID on a survey on one particular afternoon. That data would already be on record anyway. The prison service must have had a system of recording gender identity because otherwise every prisoner would have been in the prison appropriate to their birth sex on the day of the survey.

One minute we are told that TW are in fact just gay men who can't cope with deeply sublimated homophobia. Gay men who are attracted to men, therefore. In the next breath they are telling us that TW are a sexual threat in women's loos and prisons. Which is it guys? Because it sure as hell isn't both.

Who's saying all transwomen are gay males? I was referring to the kids (male and female) referred to the Tavistock - statistically many of them were same sex attracted, especially the girls. There seem to be plenty of transwomen who claim to lesbians around and when they're in the changing room, prison, or hospital ward you have no idea whether their sexual interest is males or females. They are still men in women's spaces though.

Everybody who comes under the transgender umbrella hasn't been through a clinic, is on hormones or had surgery. It's not a requirement of the self ID system you wish to see introduced. 'Trans' is everybody from those with diagnosed lifelong dysphoria to blokes who like wearing certain clothes. That's part of the problem with self ID.

 

[monkers]

Sounds very, very unlikely that the government's official data on trans prisoners is based on their own self-ID on a survey on one particular afternoon. That data would already be on record anyway. The prison service must have had a system of recording gender identity because otherwise every prisoner would have been in the prison appropriate to their birth sex on the day of the survey.

He had 40 years of experience working in the prison service. How many years have you have doing so?

301. There is no reliable data about the numbers of trans people in the criminal justice system. We heard an estimate that there are 100 trans prisoners, but the Prison Service does not currently capture such information.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf#page=63

 

[AuroraSaab]

Lol. I don't believe any of your anecdotes, Monica.

This one - that the Ministry of Justice based their official statistics on a specific 'What's your gender today?' survey they asked the 78,0000 UK prisoners to do themselves, and that some put down a different gender just to show support for the transwomen, and that none of this was picked up - simply defies belief.

In fact the HMPPS Offender Equalities Report which has the official stats actually says 'transgender prisoner' means those already known to the system, but who don't have a GRC.

 

[AndyRM]

We know from the emails that the Tavistock clinic were forced to release the other week that they were allowing Mermaids to refer children directly, after their own GP had said no. That in itself is a massive failing of safeguarding. People who have been through the system seem to be saying they weren't properly assessed for their other issues - Keira Bell says she was put on puberty blockers after 3 one hour meetings. Dr Michael Webberly was suspended for doling out hormones without proper assessment:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...nge-drugs-private-online-GenderGp-clinic.html

If they were being given thorough and appropriate care there wouldn't be any detransitioners, certainly not ones who had been through surgery in their teens and early twenties. The affirmation model pretty much excludes 'appropriate' because it doesn't allow exploration of the young person's other issues.

If the service was so good, they wouldn't be closing it and changing to a holistic model.

Doesn't it worry you that many of the Tavistock kids were same sex attracted? Without medical intervention they might well have grown up to be gay.



Sounds very, very unlikely that the government's official data on trans prisoners is based on their own self-ID on a survey on one particular afternoon. That data would already be on record anyway. The prison service must have had a system of recording gender identity because otherwise every prisoner would have been in the prison appropriate to their birth sex on the day of the survey.


Who's saying all transwomen are gay males? I was referring to the kids (male and female) referred to the Tavistock - statistically many of them were same sex attracted, especially the girls. There seem to be plenty of transwomen who claim to lesbians around and when they're in the changing room, prison, or hospital ward you have no idea whether their sexual interest is males or females. They are still men in women's spaces though.

Everybody who comes under the transgender umbrella hasn't been through a clinic, is on hormones or had surgery. It's not a requirement of the self ID system you wish to see introduced. 'Trans' is everybody from those with diagnosed lifelong dysphoria to blokes who like wearing certain clothes. That's part of the problem with self ID.

As I said, quite specifically, there are unscrupulous people around.

 

[monkers]

Lol. I don't believe any of your anecdotes, Monica.

This one - that the Ministry of Justice based their official statistics on a specific 'What's your gender today?' survey they asked the 78,0000 UK prisoners to do themselves, and that some put down a different gender just to show support for the transwomen, and that none of this was picked up - simply defies belief.

In fact the HMPPS Offender Equalities Report which has the official stats actually says 'transgender prisoner' means those already known to the system, but who don't have a GRC.

View attachment 4011

I suppose in your head that quote serves to disprove what I said, but to a rational person with competence in English comprehension it doesn't. Try again.

In the meantime I'll see what google can tell us about the data collection exercise that my source is referring to.

Well now, that only took about 20 seconds, you could have done the same ...

The new policy guidelines, Prison Service Instruction 17/2016 state that “all transgender prisoners (irrespective of prison location) must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify”. Such prisoners must be asked their view of the part of the prison estate that reflects this; however a decision to locate them in a prison which does not accord with their legal gender can only be made following a Transgender Case Board. Those who wish to be placed in a prison location which is not consistent with their legally recognised gender must provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify. Assessments will be made on a case by case basis. Also in November 2016, the Ministry of Justice published the first official statistics on transgender prisoners. A data collection exercise in March/April 2016 showed that there were 70 transgender prisoners in 33 of the 123 public and private prisons in England and Wales. A Ministry of Justice report published in November 2017 said there were 125 transgender.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7420/CBP-7420.pdf

Perhaps you can tell us why a data collection exercise was necessary?

Oh look and here it is again, though this time it states more clearly the source of the data ...

Summary According to a data collection exercise conducted in March/April 2016:  33 of the 123 public and private prisons (27%) in England and Wales said that they had 1 or more transgender prisoners2 .  There were 70 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a case conference (as defined by PSI 07/2011). Of these, 52 reported their gender as male, 14 reported their gender as female and 4 did not state their gender.  8 of the 70 prisoners reported their ethnic group as Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic Group; 61 as White and 1 was not stated.  Based on this exercise, there were 0.8 transgender prisoners reported per 1,000 prisoners in custody.

Can you read that? That's right, in the data collection exercise, prisoners reported their gender (identity).

 

[icowden]

But you can have breast augmentation or reduction, for example. The former especially is essentially gender affirmation. How angry are you about it?

I'm not angry about anything. What leads you to believe that I am angry?
Personally I don't think that breast augmentation, facelifts etc are good things and the world would be a better place without them.
Breast reduction is different as it can be needed for medical reasons.

 

[icowden]

Perhaps you can tell us why a data collection exercise was necessary?

That's easy. I suspect that their IT is as good as the rest of the government's IT. Further the system is likely to be old so they would be recorded as male or female and gender identity would likely not be recorded. The Government doesn't mandate recording of gender identity only biological gender. Thus to find out, they probably had to ask each prison.

 

[monkers]

That's easy. I suspect that their IT is as good as the rest of the government's IT. Further the system is likely to be old so they would be recorded as male or female and gender identity would likely not be recorded. The Government doesn't mandate recording of gender identity only biological gender. Thus to find out, they probably had to ask each prison.

Thank you, we agree. Further to your thoughts though, the provisions of the 2004 prevent asking people for proof of their gender identity. At least I think it likely that was still in force before the changes were made in 2017, but I would need to check to be sure.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Well now, that only took about 20 seconds, you could have done the same ...
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7420/CBP-7420.pdf

Perhaps you can tell us why a data collection exercise was necessary?

Lol. It doesn't say they asked individual prisoners, just that they collected the data. As 'transgender prisoner' means someone with a case board and known to the diversity lead, why would they need to survey 78,000 individual prisoners? They'd just ask each prison if there were any changes and what their numbers were. No case board, not known to the diversity lead? Not included on the stats.

 

[Deleted member 121]

I'm not angry about anything. What leads you to believe that I am angry?
Personally I don't think that breast augmentation, facelifts etc are good things and the world would be a better place without them.
Breast reduction is different as it can be needed for medical reasons.

Thanks Doc...

But, There are actual medical reasons for breast augmentation procedures which qualify for NHS surgery.

 

[monkers]

Lol. It doesn't say they asked individual prisoners, just that they collected the data. As 'transgender prisoner' means someone with a case board and known to the diversity lead, why would they need to survey 78,000 individual prisoners? They'd just ask each prison if there were any changes and what their numbers were.

Now look again as I've added a second link for you, which states more exactly that it relied on prisoners reporting their gender identity.

 

[AuroraSaab]

As I said, quite specifically, there are unscrupulous people around.

That wasn't a few bad apples though. It was a major failing of the actual system. Which is why they are changing the model. We don't even know if all the kids who went through the Tavistock are happy with their outcomes. They never followed them up to find out.

 

[monkers]

​

Recording of information​

Prison establishments record details for individual inmates on the prison IT system known as Prison National Offender Management Information System (Prison-NOMIS). Information recorded includes details such as date of birth, sex, religion, nationality, ethnic origin, custody type, offence, reception and release dates and, for sentenced prisoners, sentence length.
Information related to name, sex, date of birth and sentence are taken from the court warrant, which provides the legal authority to detain that person. Court warrants obtain personal information from the plea from the individual submitted ahead of their trial.
Other information collected will be self-declared by the individual when processed at the prison. If during the information collection process, the individual has official identification documentation on their person, such as a passport, then this is used to verify the recorded information.

 

[monkers]

That wasn't a few bad apples though. It was a major failing of the actual system. Which is why they are changing the model. We don't even know if all the kids who went through the Tavistock are happy with their outcomes. They never followed them up to find out.

There it is, despite all the previous dogma that most of these 'kids' would just turn out gay if left alone, to this admission that 'we don't even know'.

It beggars belief.

 

[monkers]

A long read, but a more balanced report into the despair of trans youth on services.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/britain-transyouth/

A word to the wise, don't believe all that you read everything you read in forums and chat rooms.