Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

If kids get support/therapy for all their issues, not just the body/gender ones, and they aren't put on puberty blockers, then it does resolve in most children by early 20's.

Even the Dutch have realised that those being seen at the clinics went from older males with longstanding dysphoria to mostly young people, especially teenage girls - and rowed back on puberty blockers.

When the affirmation model is followed and kids have started down a medical path there's noone willing to put the brakes on, not the clinics, not the psychologists, not the surgeons. It may not be waved through overnight but it's not challenged very much if detransitioners are to be believed.

It is pretty much waved through in the US. There's no serious questioning about mental health. It's pretty much elective surgery. (I know, Matt Walsh... but he does have a point here)
'Approved for testicle removal in 22 minutes'

View: https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1666496308150951954


To be expected when the surgery market is expected to be worth $6 billion a year by 2030.

I don't look at Matt Walsh - no sure why anyone would. There's some gap between what he says Groner is saying and what they are actually saying.

None of this applies to the UK as far as I'm aware, since we don't have insurance-based healthcare that covers this - or at least the majority won't have.

Unless things have changed since my niece entered the system, the steps taken by the GP were to first arrange an appointment with a local psychologist, ask the local NHS board for funding, and the refer to GIC. Neither the GP or the local psyche saw their position as gatekeepers, the GIC does it own gatekeeping but not until they know the funding is in place. I am aware that the lists are now so long that the statutory two year transition times are stretched out for 5 or 6 years in some cases.

In the case of my niece the psyche appt happened quickly, the funding bid took about a year. The appointment to the GIC some 30 months later, where she was asked a lot of irrelevant questions (32 of the 40 questions asked were about masturbation). She was sent away to obtain blood tests and a follow up appointment was made for six months later, which was cancelled, then a new appointment made for six months after that, which was again cancelled. After this my patience was exhausted and I paid for her to be seen privately, something which goes against my own socialist ideals of collective responsibility to look after the population, but there I could not see her suffer further.

 

[monkers]

It's more that you are happy with the 'Nazi' mud slinging at KJK but don't like the 'my friends Hamas' stuff thrown at JC. It's your hypocrisy I'm pointing out.


And you've been given the links a hundred times. Services can exclude transwomen on the grounds that they are men (when it's appropriate). They are excluded because they are biological men, even with a GRC, so there is no discrimination for being transgender. The Guardian explain it very simply:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-single-sex-services-if-justifiable-says-ehrc

The EHRC can provide advice. Their advice does not override or supercede the legal precedence of case law. The current case law is contrary to their advice, this shouldn't happen.

 

[monkers]

Even if we set aside the interests of family, other patients and those who must bear the financial costs of providing for the patient’s lifelong disability, those who have a disorder that causes them to desire to maim and disable their bodies cannot meet this standard of voluntarily accepting the burden of choice that makes the practice of respecting autonomy acceptable.

Ah right, after some googling you found someone in New York who agrees with you therefore that must be the right opinion?

 

[classic33]

And yet you can't have elective surgery to amputate your leg. There have to be significant medical grounds.

Already been done.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12448590/

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/02/i-chose-to-amputate-own-leg-erez-avramov

 

[classic33]

It's more that you are happy with the 'Nazi' mud slinging at KJK but don't like the 'my friends Hamas' stuff thrown at JC. It's your hypocrisy I'm pointing out.


And you've been given the links a hundred times. Services can exclude transwomen on the grounds that they are men (when it's appropriate). They are excluded because they are biological men, even with a GRC, so there is no discrimination for being transgender. The Guardian explain it very simply:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-single-sex-services-if-justifiable-says-ehrc

And just how do you find that bit out?
To even ask for such proof puts you in breach of the Equalities Act.

 

[classic33]

Ah right, after some googling you found someone in New York who agrees with you therefore that must be the right opinion?

They also treat it, AIIB?, with some very powerful drugs* that your GP can prescribe. No referral to a specialist required.

*Lifelong and body altering side effects, some will only come to light much later after starting on them.

 

[classic33]

Plenty of gays and lesbians are very much 'LGB without the T' and they seem to support and be welcomed by KJK, which contradicts the 'She's a Nazi' thing a bit.

The 'case by case' assessment was likely followed for the ones who committed the assaults recorded in the stats. It was correctly followed for Karen White. That's how they got to be in women's prisons in the first place. It shows the whole policy didn't work. It's what you get when you let activists write policy. (As in Scotland too).

https://fairplayforwomen.com/prison-review/

Proper self ID would give transwomen access to all female single sex spaces - it's not self ID otherwise. If self ID laws were passed it seems very unlikely that pressure groups like Stonewall are going to let there be any exceptions. In fact it's in their objectives to do away with all the single sex exemptions of the Equality Act.

You mean like Barbie Kardashian, serving time in a women's institution in Limerick?
The only other inmates being two women.

Lol. Good job the arguments against your batsh*t gender ideology nonsense rest on science, evolution, and common sense then isn't it.

Well you can have implants removed. You can't replace unnecessary double maestectomies or severed penises. You can't replace hair lost through testosterone or make a deep voice high again. Or reverse infertility or loss of sexual function.

If anybody wants to see what Monkers is cheering on, Google 'top surgery' or 'trans man phallus surgery'.

And if they weren't implants?

You mean to say all those hair loss treatments and clinics are lying!
And as yet there is no proof that testosterone does cause hair loss. But then it's a medication, and every medication comes with side effects, all of which different people react in different ways to exactly the same medication(s).

 

[theclaud]

And yet you can't have elective surgery to amputate your leg. There have to be significant medical grounds.

But you can have breast augmentation or reduction, for example. The former especially is essentially gender affirmation. How angry are you about it?

 

[AndyRM]

If kids get support/therapy for all their issues, not just the body/gender ones, and they aren't put on puberty blockers, then it does resolve in most children by early 20's.

Even the Dutch have realised that those being seen at the clinics went from older males with longstanding dysphoria to mostly young people, especially teenage girls - and rowed back on puberty blockers.

When the affirmation model is followed and kids have started down a medical path there's noone willing to put the brakes on, not the clinics, not the psychologists, not the surgeons. It may not be waved through overnight but it's not challenged very much if detransitioners are to be believed.

It is pretty much waved through in the US. There's no serious questioning about mental health. It's pretty much elective surgery. (I know, Matt Walsh... but he does have a point here)
'Approved for testicle removal in 22 minutes'

View: https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1666496308150951954


To be expected when the surgery market is expected to be worth $6 billion a year by 2030.

I don't think there's any way you can properly quantify that initial statement. Gender dysphoria is different for everyone and massively complicated to deal with.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But you can have breast augmentation or reduction, for example. The former especially is essentially gender affirmation. How angry are you about it?

Feminists have been angry about the social pressures that lead women to have any cosmetic surgery for years. If you regret having your breasts enlarged is that going to be more distressing than the regret of having had them removed, plus a hysterectomy, and the side effects of testosterone? You can have your implants taken out. The other stuff is irreversible.

I don't think there's any way you can properly quantify that initial statement. Gender dysphoria is different for everyone and massively complicated to deal with.

Probably best to explore it and all the other issues in detail before starting kids on meds then. Which doesn't happen very well with the affirmation model. I don't object to mature adults with long standing dysphoria committing to a lifetime of drugs, or even surgery, after appropriate evaluation, but I think children and young people need greater care.

 

[monkers]

Feminists have been angry about the social pressures that lead women to have any cosmetic surgery for years. If you regret having your breasts enlarged is that going to be more distressing than the regret of having had them removed, plus a hysterectomy, and the side effects of testosterone? You can have your implants taken out. The other stuff is irreversible.



Probably best to explore it and all the other issues in detail before starting kids on meds then. Which doesn't happen very well with the affirmation model. I don't object to mature adults with long standing dysphoria committing to a lifetime of drugs, or even surgery, after appropriate evaluation, but I think children and young people need greater care.

So do I, but I feel certain that the GRC approach is flat out wrong. As a result of the GRC campaigning young people are missing out on their healthcare. We can agree that the state of trans healthcare was deficient. However the while some will say that the system became weak because it was overburdened, I will argue that it became weak because it was without sufficient resource.

This is what 13 years of austerity measures looks like. Everything failed because Conservative governments made political decisions not to adequately fund them. At the same time there has been a lack of resource for research.

You have made various statements in various contexts - one is about following the scientific evidence, another is to rely on what the Dutch, Danish and Swedes are saying and doing. In all of these cases the decisions that have been made have been due to a lack of medical evidence to support the use of medical blockers. The evidence that you know this is seen in your other statements concerning the use of blockers 'off-label'.

Now if you are a feminist, it would follow that you tend from the left wing of politics, but you set out to ridicule @theclaud for her political persuasion, while do little to denounce those voices from the far right. It doesn't look like you are much of a feminist at all to me, speaking as somebody who has been for a long time.

As a result of the gender critical groups, healthcare for young people is disappearing, staff are leaving due to the abuse they are receiving, some turning to private practice instead. Ongoing healthcare is becoming only available to those young people with parents that can afford to turn to private practice.

Views about the future of the NHS are sure to vary, but I value it as the nation's greatest asset. It is declining in so many ways despite the best efforts of those who strive to keep services operating.

Despite your assertions, I am not involved in trans activism. Neither am I actively involved in politics more widely - but I've had enough of this authoritarian government and their blatant disregard for regular folk in this country. Now that they have made protest all but illegal, I am thinking of taking up activism, most probably as an eco-zealot; but you've persuaded me that going to prison to protect the lives of trans people is something I really should be prepared to do.

 

[monkers]

As an aside to the current chat in this thread, I had an interesting chat by phone this afternoon with a friend I haven't seen for some time. He is ex prison service being now retired and moved off to Dorset.

He brought up the subject of trans prisoners. Along the way I asked him about the data gathering. He had this to say, this is not verbatum, so no use of quote marks, but nonetheless, I think I've captured him ...

In the prison where I last worked we held two trans women prisoners in the male estate. They were both popular, not in that way that suggests sexual favours, they were just well-liked. We were asked to assemble the prisoners in the dining hall to complete a data collection census. The questions included a question about congruency of assigned sex at birth and gender identity. He said that the question caused a lot of merriment, with some saying they were going to tick the box for a laugh, but the mood changed and they didn't. It wasn't that they didn't tick the 'trans box'; they did, but not for a laugh. They ticked the box because they wanted to show support for trans prisoners.

This data exercise was carried out across the prison estates of England and Wales, but not Scotland or Northern Ireland. I'm sure that the data is far from accurate since, it is inevitable that at some prisons the prisoners will have ticked the trans box for a giggle - which they could do without repercussion since the survey was anonymised.

I'm pretty sure that government data was based on the outcome of this survey alone since we didn't have a system of recording gender identity in place previously. I don't know what the requirements are now since leaving the service.

 

[multitool]

The thing about the GC movement is that it is a fake movement. The people who turn up to their dreary so-called protests are not the victims of anything. Their movement is not based in actual physical grievances that are the result of events but are purely hypothetical. You can see it here with Aurora. If she had any actual, palpable experience of being wronged by a TW we would have heard about it ad nauseum. She relies on her hypothetical arguments eg. "tw are men therefore a threat". She won't conceive that they are different to "men'", not least in their own self-perception.

The difference between this movement and, say BLM, is that BLM is founded on an inexhaustible supply of actual events.

The parallel should be with movements such as anti-vaxxers, whose claims to do stand up to epidemiology. The GC movements claims do not stand up to the 'epidemiology' of trans existence. They rely on a few isolated incidents that are unrepresentative of the group as a whole, and yet they recycle them over and over. This is why AS talks about Karen White, but won't talk about the other TW prisoners in female prisons, nine of whom have any recorded incidents against them in 4 years.

The similarity is also with racist groups who focus on Muslim rape gangs, as if the ethnic origin is representative of a predilection for abuse. The similarity is also with the Nazis of the 1930s who very successfully whipped up genocidal hatred against the Jews based on...guess what...nothing palpable.

This is why I have zero time for AS and her 'arguments' nor her little inadequate lackey, icow, who really should know better.

 

[AndyRM]

Feminists have been angry about the social pressures that lead women to have any cosmetic surgery for years. If you regret having your breasts enlarged is that going to be more distressing than the regret of having had them removed, plus a hysterectomy, and the side effects of testosterone? You can have your implants taken out. The other stuff is irreversible.



Probably best to explore it and all the other issues in detail before starting kids on meds then. Which doesn't happen very well with the affirmation model. I don't object to mature adults with long standing dysphoria committing to a lifetime of drugs, or even surgery, after appropriate evaluation, but I think children and young people need greater care.

But children and young people are given they care they require professionally. There may be unscrupulous people around who take advantage, but they are nowhere near as prevalent as you seem to think.

 

[multitool]

I mean the inconsistencies are amazing. One minute we are told that TW are in fact just gay men who can't cope with deeply sublimated homophobia. Gay men who are attracted to men, therefore.

In the next breath they are telling us that TW are a sexual threat in women's loos and prisons.

Which is it guys? Because it sure as hell isn't both.