Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

I knew you wouldn't / couldn't understand. My gender identity has always been strong in me. I didn't meet social expectations because I didn't seem like others. There was great pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, which I rejected because I never felt they were for me - I didn't need them to know who I am. As usual the problem was unthinking people.

And people similarly feel very strongly that they have a Christian soul, or that being a Taurean is very much a part of their identity. These are metaphysical beliefs. Which is fine until their adherents demand these beliefs should override material reality in legislation.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Is that yes or no?

I think anybody can like anything they want to like. Particular clothes, toys, haircuts, aren't the preserve of either sex. Are you seriously saying though that children aren't conditioned from a very young age to believe clothes and toys in particular are differentiated by sex? Even if you try to avoid it as a parent it's everywhere. Far more than it was when I was a child.

What's the cumulative effect of years of this on children?

 

[newfhouse]

Are you seriously saying though that children aren't conditioned from a very young age to believe clothes and toys in particular are differentiated by sex?

No. Where did I even come close to saying that? Are you sure you’re not doing that straw man thing again?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I think you knew full well what my earlier post meant, even if I expressed it in a simple fashion, ie. that children are inundated from birth with regressive stereotypes which might cause them to unnecessarily question themselves if they don't conform to them. I think you were being deliberately obtuse.

 

[newfhouse]

I think you knew full well what my earlier post meant, even if I expressed it in a simple fashion, ie. that children are inundated from birth with regressive stereotypes which might cause them to unnecessarily question themselves if they don't conform to them. I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

I asked you if you really believed what you wrote. I acknowledge that you seem to have back pedalled a little.

It‘s possible to think that early gender stereotyping can be limiting and unhelpful - and I do - without also believing that it is necessarily a common cause of gender incongruence.

 

[theclaud]

True - but it is quite likely that when they were old enough to mate that they would figure out how to do it due to biological drives.

Missionary position, no doubt. The Blue Lagoon wasn't actually a documentary, you know.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I haven't back-pedelled. It's clear that many girls who transitioned to male - and they were convinced enough to get puberty blockers, testosterone, and surgeries - were deeply affected by those stereotypes and societal expectations, even if I expressed it in a simplistic way.

This is an art project of portraits of detransitioned girls and women. I've posted this link before but in their stories it's clear that being gender non conforming, and in many cases lesbian, was a large part of the influence in transitioning. Click on each drawing for their story.

https://www.metamorphosis100.com/art

 

[newfhouse]

I haven't back-pedelled.

Oh, that’s a shame.

Without wishing to diminish the experiences of the people in your link, they are a small proportion of a small number and therefore may or may not be representative of a wider truth. I don’t have statistics but I do have a gut feeling that there’s more to this topic than pink and blue or cowboys and princesses.

 

[classic33]

I haven't back-pedelled. It's clear that many girls who transitioned to male - and they were convinced enough to get puberty blockers, testosterone, and surgeries - were deeply affected by those stereotypes and societal expectations, even if I expressed it in a simplistic way.

This is an art project of portraits of detransitioned girls and women. I've posted this link before but in their stories it's clear that being gender non conforming, and in many cases lesbian, was a large part of the influence in transitioning. Click on each drawing for their story.

https://www.metamorphosis100.com/art

You can provide similar for boys that felt they were wrong to feel they were wrong when they decided to de-transition.

Otherwise your claims are all one sided.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I never said that was all there is to it. But there's certainly a lot more to it than kids recognising some magical innate essence. You only need to look at the overrepresentaion of autistic and gay children being referred to see that.

Data from the Tavistock suggest a huge increase in the number of girls being referred. Especially around puberty when the difficulties of being gender non conforming or gay come to the fore.
Even the Dutch clinic on whose protocol the affirmation model is based has warned that the cohort has changed from largely adult men to largely teenage girls and that this is a cause for concern.

If societal pressure on girls isn't a large factor, and instead it's because gender is innate, where are all the middle aged women coming out as transmen? You'd think there would be loads. Free of caring what peers and parents think, money for private treatment, now loads of support groups, less discrimination at work etc, yet there seem to be very few middle aged transmen, but lots of middle aged transwomen and lots of teenage girls thinking they are boys.

 

[classic33]

Your sole narrative throughout this thread, and others, has been that boys/men who transition are doing so to gain access to areas you feel they shouldn't. And, that its only girls/women that have trouble with a decision they made earlier. They are the only ones who are deserving of any care, in your mind.

I'll assume you don't have anything to answer my last question with, so just inserted random "facts" to back up your narrative.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You can provide similar for boys that felt they were wrong to feel they were wrong when they decided to de-transition.

Otherwise your claims are all one sided.

There are quite a few on social media, including ones who had surgery. I think there are fewer who are willing to talk about it though. Perhaps because if you are a transwoman without surgery and who stops taking cross sex hormones it's easier to detransition and blend back in to life as a male. Detransitioned women have to cope with facial hair, deeper voice, going bald. Also, the men who detransition seem to do so because they realised they were gay so it's perhaps just less of a major thing to detransition and put it behind you, and easier to get on with your life than it is for women.

On the old forum there was a member who spoke very movingly of the difficulties he and his wife went through when their son transitioned to a transwoman. After a few years he detransitioned and was now in a long term gay relationship. (He hasn't posted on here so I won't name him).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ioned-living-transgender-woman-two-years.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...10-years-i-detransitioned-to-find-a-wife/amp/

Olli London is rather anti trans these days. I think he has a few issues.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ransition-caused-more-problems-than-it-solved

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ts-bravely-waived-anonymity-share-ordeal.html

Nearly all detransitioners seem to be people who transitioned under 25, often in their teens.

 

[classic33]

There are quite a few on social media, including ones who had surgery. I think there are fewer who are willing to talk about it though. Perhaps because if you are a transwoman without surgery and who stops taking cross sex hormones it's easier to detransition and blend back in to life as a male. Detransitioned women have to cope with facial hair, deeper voice, going bald. Also, the men who detransition seem to do so because they realised they were gay so it's perhaps just less of a major thing to detransition and put it behind you, and easier to get on with your life than it is for women.

On the old forum there was a member who spoke very movingly of the difficulties he and his wife went through when their son transitioned to a transwoman. After a few years he detransitioned and was now in a long term gay relationship. (He hasn't posted on here so I won't name him).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ioned-living-transgender-woman-two-years.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...10-years-i-detransitioned-to-find-a-wife/amp/

Olli London is rather anti trans these days. I think he has a few issues.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ransition-caused-more-problems-than-it-solved

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ts-bravely-waived-anonymity-share-ordeal.html

Nearly all detransitioners seem to be people who transitioned under 25, often in their teens.

The simple answer is you don't want to/can't provide the same level of "proof", so you post a few newspaper links. In your usual manner.

 

[icowden]

Your sole narrative throughout this thread, and others, has been that boys/men who transition are doing so to gain access to areas you feel they shouldn't. And, that its only girls/women that have trouble with a decision they made earlier. They are the only ones who are deserving of any care, in your mind.

I don't think that's fair at all. @AuroraSaab's concern which is echoed across social media is that *some* men who claim to be "transitioning" are doing so to gain access or act out their perversions. It tends to be girls / women who have regret as the surgery they undergo is far, far more invasive than that which men undergo - and many transwomen choose not to have surgery at all.

 

[icowden]

The simple answer is you don't want to/can't provide the same level of "proof", so you post a few newspaper links. In your usual manner.

What level of proof did you want? Did you want @AuroraSaab to carry out a doctorate thesis for you?