Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

They wouldn't know their biological sex either

True - but it is quite likely that when they were old enough to mate that they would figure out how to do it due to biological drives.

 

[monkers]

There's no proof gender identity even exists, nevermind that it's innate. The whole idea of 'gender identity' rests on Man-made stereotypes of male and female behaviour, dress, roles etc. Without those stereotypes there's nothing to transition to.

If two babies, one male one female, were shipwrecked on an island and miraculously lived until adulthood, how would they know their 'innate' gender identity? Without stereotypes of male and female dress and behaviour around them to refer to what would be their frame of reference for having say a 'male' gender identity? Their sex would be male and female and they would likely know their sexuality, but how can gender identity be innate when it can't exist without reference to already the long established regressive stereotypes of what 'man' and 'woman' means?

There's no evidence, as far as I know, that elderly gay people with dementia forget they are gay. There does seem to be some evidence that elderly transgender people forget they have transitioned. Why would that happen if gender identity is innate?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-43365446.amp

The scale of this thinking is identified in your use of the word 'miraculous'. You have otherwise always condemned 'magical thinking' - now you are relying upon it to develop a non-argument. If two babies did manage to grow up together alone they would be severely cognitively impaired.

Mammals other than humans are born with instincts that are observable in their behaviours. Why is it too much to assume that humans can not also be born with instincts?

 

[AuroraSaab]

But what you pose has no contact with the real world where kids have gender models from day one.

So it can't be innate then if it relies on having gender models to compare yourself to.

A youngster at 4 or 14 with knowledge of what society spells out as/for gender id means can they ID a mismatch between what they feel and what's expected.

This is the problem though. Kids look at society and say 'I'm a girl who likes motorbikes .... only boys like motorbikes, maybe I'm a boy' or a parent says 'Our little boy likes pink dresses... only girls like pink and dresses, maybe he's a girl'.

You are telling kids they are a different sex because they don't meet society's stereotypes, or as you call them 'gender models', of what boys and girls should be like.

We need to do away with gender models altogether. The whole notion of gender oppresses people, especially girls.

 

[monkers]

So it can't be innate then if it relies on having gender models to compare yourself to.

Who says that gender identity relies on having gender models for it to form? And on what evidence?

 

[multitool]

This is the problem though. Kids look at society and say 'I'm a girl who likes motorbikes .... only boys like motorbikes, maybe I'm a boy' or a parent says 'Our little boy likes pink dresses... only girls like pink and dresses, maybe he's a girl'.

Yes this actually is how it happens

 

[AuroraSaab]

The scale of this thinking is identified in your use of the word 'miraculous'. You have otherwise always condemned 'magical thinking' - now you are relying upon it to develop a non-argument. If two babies did manage to grow up together alone they would be severely cognitively impaired.

Nothing more miraculous than a gendered soul.

Mammals other than humans are born with instincts that are observable in their behaviours. Why is it too much to assume that humans can not also be born with instincts?

All animals, including humans, have instincts, mostly based around reproducing and finding food. You surely aren't saying though that there are so many innate instinctive behaviours that are exclusively 'male' and ones that are exclusively 'female' that people who display the ones you associate with the opposite sex would have a gender identity of that sex not their birth sex?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Who says that gender identity relies on having gender models for it to form? And on what evidence?

Bromptonaut apparently. How is gender identity formed then if not by reference to stereotypes in society? Nobody's born with an instinct to like pink. Nobody innately likes wearing make up. Nobody has a natural predisposition to short hair. These are all stereotypes of male and female customs.

How do kids learn gendered expectations if not through having sexist nonsense around them from day one? It's not innate.

 

[monkers]

It's not innate.

WHO say otherwise - if only their teams of medical experts were as clever as you eh?

 

[AuroraSaab]

WHO define gender identity as:
"Gender identity refers to a person’s internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to their sex at birth".

WHO define gender as:
"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy.."

Which suggests that gender identity is someone's personal subjective experience, a response to the socially constructed expectations associated with the two sexes - ie. you arrive at your gender identity by comparing yourself to society's stereotypes of what male and female should be like.

Nothing to suggest it's innate.

Can you list us a few things that help tell us what our innate gender identity is? There must be some clues if it's innate and not based on referring to stereotypes.

 

[monkers]

WHO define gender identity as:
"Gender identity refers to a person’s internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to their sex at birth".

WHO define gender as:
"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy.."

Which suggests that gender identity is someone's personal subjective experience, a response to the socially constructed expectations associated with the two sexes - ie. you arrive at your gender identity by comparing yourself to society's stereotypes of what male and female should be like.

Nothing to suggest it's innate.

Can you list us a few things that help tell us what our innate gender identity is? There must be some clues if it's innate and not based on referring to stereotypes.

Either you know yourself or you don't. It's fine if you don't. But if you can't figure out if your gender identity is then maybe you're non-binary, but then again maybe not.

I have a strong sense of my gender identity, and it's clearly not built around social constructs in my case, it's more an instinctive reaction to reject them as they don't fit.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If your gender identity is based on not fitting social constructs (ie stereotypes), then it's not innate. Things which are innate are not dependent on, or a response to, external factors. They exist in and of themselves, independent of other influences.

I don't have a gender identity, just as I don't have a religious soul or a star sign. It's about as rational or scientific as either of those things.

I'd be grateful to know how one detects this innate essence though. There must be some obvious indicators other than you just know.

 

[monkers]

If your gender identity is based on not fitting social constructs (ie stereotypes), then it's not innate. Things which are innate are not dependent on, or a response to, external factors. They exist in and of themselves, independent of other influences.

I don't have a gender identity, just as I don't have a religious soul or a star sign. It's about as rational or scientific as either of those things.

I'd be grateful to know how one detects this innate essence though. There must be some obvious indicators other than you just know.

I knew you wouldn't / couldn't understand. My gender identity has always been strong in me. I didn't meet social expectations because I didn't seem like others. There was great pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, which I rejected because I never felt they were for me - I didn't need them to know who I am. As usual the problem was unthinking people.

 

[newfhouse]

Kids look at society and say 'I'm a girl who likes motorbikes .... only boys like motorbikes, maybe I'm a boy'

Is this what you truly believe?

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's a simplification but it's what detransitioners say about how they ended up on puberty blockers and having double mastectomies. They didn't fit in, they were gender non-conforming, they didn't like all the stuff traditionally associated with their birth sex .... and thanks to the likes of Mermaids and the Internet, they get the idea in their head that they might be the other sex rather than a non stereotypical girl.

I've never read a story of a 'trans child' that didn't start with them liking clothes and toys associated with the opposite sex, or being gender non-conforming. Gender stereotypes damage children, and the idea that you can have a mysterious gender identity or essence reifies these stereotypes, it doesn't undermine them.

 

[newfhouse]

Is that yes or no?