Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

Whether the majority or minority feel as AS and I do isn't really relevant - fwiw Id say there's a fairly wide space between the feelings on this, between the two of us.

I didn't say it was necessarily relevant. AS was making a false claim to lend weight to her argument.

Those women whose feelings have already been massively discounted by individuals who have abused, or taken advantage of them. They're the ones that I'm personally particularly concerned about here.

Everyone's feelings have to be taken into consideration, as they were in the Scottish Parliament. The Parliament considered the evidence and the arguments and the voted. That's democracy. Some people don't get what they want. I didn't want Brexit, and it's palpably shite. I didn't want 14 years of Tory. It has had a serious impact on me and my children.

I don't know what the outcome of this legislation will be. Hence wanting to look at the evidence from other countries.

 

[mudsticks]

Everyone's feelings have to be taken into consideration, as they were in the Scottish Parliament. The Parliament considered the evidence and the arguments and the voted. That's democracy. Some people don't get what they want. I didn't want Brexit, and it's palpably shite. I didn't want 14 years of Tory. It has had a serious impact on me and my children.

I don't know what the outcome of this legislation will be. Hence wanting to look at the evidence from other countries.

Well I'd not disagree with most of this.
Esp the Tories and brexit being much shittier than a shite thing.

In my world, shite has a positive benefit to bestow upon on the world.

Neither the Tories nor brexit do this at all.

They've both been terrible for the rights of the already marginalised.


We will of course have to see how the Scots legislation works out, one of my sons was very pleased, I have reservations, particularly where it could impact those most vulnerable, those least able to stick up for their own rights.

 

[AuroraSaab]

At least you're admitting your survey has a whopping 51% of women that weren't bothered. That's a hardly a massive endorsement. It doesn't give them authority to consent on behalf of women who disagree. And it's not really democracy when it wasn't on the SNP manifesto and SNP members were whipped to vote for it.

You keep saying I've made false claims yet you've posted a link to one survey with 51% of women 'not bothered' and I've posted one with women very much bothered and at least one other where both men and women objected.

I've posted the US stats on trans prisoner offending. It shows they offend at a higher rate than men. At the very least they retain male offending patterns.

Here's the president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists, in evidence to a government enquiry, saying that men who claim to be women are seeking transfer to the women's estate for nefarious reasons. He's pretty much admitting that non-trans sex offenders are gaming the system:

You just keep thinking that if you keep repeating that I haven't posted any evidence your nonsense will stick. These, plus your condescending abuse, are the tactics of someone whose only arguments consists of 'Men are in women's spaces anyway so hard luck already', '51% of women want it so that's ok', and 'It won't hurt to give it a go'. None of which has ever been an adequate starting point for dismantling safeguarding.

 

[multitool]

Look, you are right, it's a hard thing to discuss. Particularly because it has been seized upon by people I believe to be crypto-fascists as a recruitment tool because many people are instinctively reactionary and struggle with societal change (not AuroraSaab, I hasten to add, I think her motivations come from a better place, albeit dogmatic and without clarity)

I've seen the same thing in my lifetime with the social position of gay people (criminalised at my time of birth), non-white people, and (take a deep breath) women. I'm most certainly not pro trans at the expense of women, and I accept it is not entirely conflict-free. It's a messy business, and I'm curious to see how other countries have negotiated these difficulties. I don't necessarily accept that, as per AS, problems have been solved by defining cis women out of existence.

 

[icowden]

Ah yes. The person who doesn't understand what 'rate' means in population data.

Looks like you can't explain it either.

 

[multitool]

Looks like you can't explain it either.

Not can't. Won't. Some people are worthy interlocutors. Some aren't.

 

[icowden]

Not can't. Won't. Some people are worthy interlocutors. Some aren't.

Have you considered removing that broom from up your ar$ehole? But you are right. You are not a worthy interlocutor. You have no interest in what anyone else says or thinks and no intention to share your opinion, engage in discussion or try to persuade others. As such your contribution to the discussion is worthless, and would seem to be gaslighting.

I can only conclude that you cannot support your argument regarding rate as this humble Data Analyst has no idea what you are talking about.

Definition: Troll: One who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

Anyhoo - looks like I have found a second person for my mute button!

 

[Rusty Nails]

My comment is based on AS's declaration that the majority of women do not want trans women in women's spaces. The only recent evidence I could find on women's attitudes was a survey revealing the majority (51%) of women are unconcerned about it. AS countered with another survey...but it wasn't a poll of women, it was a survey of men and women. When I pointed it out she immediately deflected by saying I didn't care about the rest of the women (49%). Hence my exasperation.

We can only work with the evidence we have.

A poll that includes men and women also includes a poll of women as one of its categories. The data in both polls are relevant.

My poll is bigger than yours (pun intended) is a diversion.

 

[multitool]

Sure, but there was no attempt to seperate out the data. It was presented as equivalent, which it was not.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's not at all like how society treated gay people. Ending the criminalisation of homosexuality in 1967 didn't impinge on anybody's rights, nevermind just women's. Same sex marriage becoming legal didn't remove rights from anyone else.

Some of the most prominent people in the fight against gender ideology are gay, such as Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindel, Alison Bailey, and Bev Jackson, who was a founder of the Gay Liberation Front, and Simon Fanshawe, a founder of Stonewall. Most are left-leaning too. Plenty of black women involved as well.

They recognise that gender ideology is regressive and homophobic, based as it is on stereotypes of what men and women should look, dress, and act like. It's everything the gay community spent years trying to get away from: 'Feminine boy? You like 'girl' things? You're a girl then'.

Suggesting that the demands of transactivists are in any way comparable to the struggles faced by the gay and the black community is insulting. Giving them rights cost us nothing. You are appropriating other people's oppression to justify taking things away from 50% of the population in order to satisfy the demands of a tiny minority.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I can't believe we've spent pages arguing over a survey that when you finally revealed the results was '51% of women weren't that bothered'.

 

[icowden]

They recognise that gender ideology is regressive and homophobic, based as it is on stereotypes of what men and women should look, dress, and act like. It's everything the gay community spent years trying to get away from: 'Feminine boy? You like 'girl' things? You're a girl then'.

And not just a girl, but a lesbian. This is making many actual lesbians very unhappy. "Eh what? You have a willy?" - "TRANSPHOBE! TERF!".

 

[Mr Celine]

Has Monkers ever been on NACA?

 

[classic33]

Has Monkers ever been on NACA?

She wasn't on CC when this opened.

 

[winjim]

Obviously I have no mind of my own so I let the YouTube algorithm decide what I want to watch for me, and today it's given me this. A quite interesting presentation from a linguist about pronouns and their useage in the current discourse. Ignore the provocative clickbaity title (why everyone's wrong about...), he covers those points but then uses it really as an introduction to talk a bit more widely around the subject.

Interesting point about gender / genre, I never made that link but it leads me to thinking about gender in a slightly different way and decoupling it from sex.


View: https://youtu.be/Kh22m1QG6i4