Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

That isn't what is being asked. But I do think there is an increased awareness for example, that if I am walking home late in the evening and happen to be behind a lone woman, that my presence might make that person anxious for example (although if they were to look at me I suspect I'm not that scary).

I think it is. The most vulnerable group to street crime is young men. When you walk alone at night, do you follow the same pattern of behaviour if following behind a young man? Pause to increase the gap, cross the road maybe? Maybe they feel as vulnerable as a young woman, or more so if they've experienced violence before?

There are men, considerate men with a heightened awareness of the vulnerability of women. As a woman I'm grateful for that consideration, but it isn't a rights based issue as being portrayed, it's something else.

 

[monkers]

There's no ladybrain. There's no 'born in the wrong body'. Not even the odious Mermaids trot out these arguments anymore.

Why claim that women have better relationships with other women, than men have with men? If this is not within the brain, where is it coming from?

There is no 'born in the wrong body'. Agreed it was a poor analogy from a previous era used by some to explain how it feels to be incongruent. But there is no supreme being making bodies and brains with the final stage of production slotting a brain into body and sometimes somehow getting it wrong. The analogy is useful in a limited way. Of course nobody has the wrong body, but plenty of people, men and women, will wish that their body was more to their liking in some way. You don't hear trans people use that analogy these days. Neither the brain is wrong, or the body is wrong, but they are mismatched, or to use diagnostic term 'incongruent'.

Odious mermaids? OK, the odious Kathleen Stock, the odious Posie Parker, the odious LGB alliance, the odious Lesbian Project, the odious Glinner. Anyone with a different opinion is odious now.

Let's change the government and get back to real social democracy shall we?

 

[Deleted member 159]

Kathleen Stock, Posie Parker, the LGB alliance, the Lesbian Project,

Women fighting for women rights.

 

[monkers]

Women fighting for women rights.

That's what you think as a man. It's not what I think as a woman or as a lesbian.

 

[Deleted member 159]

That's what you think as a man. It's not what I think as a woman or as a lesbian.

You have my deepest sympathy

 

[monkers]

You have my deepest sympathy

I really don't need it, but you have mine because you've been taken captive.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But those people with no reproductive pathway are still mammals, with other elements of sex intact. That is why there is no cogency in the argument that to have a sex you must have every element of sex. Not only are non-reproductive people mammals, but continue to live as mammals, and we recognise them as 'still mammals'.

Men who can't reproduce are infertile men. Women who can't reproduce are infertile women. Being infertile in no way makes them not men or not women. Being male or female is not dependent on every aspect of that reproductive 'machinery' working perfectly all the time, or even working at all.

And more than that those mammals are humans with human rights. Human rights are not diminished, or removed because people don't make babies.

Nobody ever said they were. This is the straw man argument of 'reducing women to their body parts' in order to claim biology doesn't matter at all. It's nonsense.

You tried to portray 'transiness' as a hierarchy too which is frankly just as rubbish.

Hang on. It's you who has now said that some who claim to be women are faking it - totally at odds with your previous 'You are who you say you are' position. It's you who claim GRC holders are different from non GRC holders.

There's no hierarchy of transwomen, you're correct.

 

[theclaud]

Women fighting for women rights.

I realise that asking you to read through the whole thread would be cruel and unusual punishment, but even Aurora has given up claiming that Parker is 'fighting for women's rights' and is quietly distancing herself from the movement's UK figurehead. Parker's an anti-abortionist who thinks that the gender system has been 'serving women well for hundreds of years'. In other words, the opposite of what you claim. Sort of Unkraut in drag. We've done Stock a bit as well, and not many people are convinced. I don't remember LGB Alliance being discussed much, but if the USP of your movement is that you're taking aim at the solidarity of an existing movement, you should expect to make some enemies.

 

[theclaud]

Sort of Unkraut in drag.

This isn't really fair - Unkraut is a kinder person and not a crass, narcissistic attention-seeker, but I was talking about the moralistic perspective.

 

[monkers]

Men who can't reproduce are infertile men. Women who can't reproduce are infertile women. Being infertile in no way makes them not men or not women. Being male or female is not dependent on every aspect of that reproductive 'machinery' working perfectly all the time, or even working at all.

Then we agree the point.

 

[monkers]

Nobody ever said they were. This is the straw man argument of 'reducing women to their body parts' in order to claim biology doesn't matter at all. It's nonsense.

No, this is where we disagree, because the straw man argument is reducing trans women to their body parts to portray them as dangerous predators. The evidence doesn't support the theory you invent from the straw man.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why claim that women have better relationships with other women, than men have with men? If this is not within the brain, where is it coming from?

Socialisation. Social conditioning. Men are no different, but not encouraged to talk about personal stuff as much so less likely to form the deep friendships that women often do, I would say. There's no ladybrain that has inexplicably found itself plonked in a male body.

Neither the brain is wrong, or the body is wrong, but they are mismatched, or to use diagnostic term 'incongruent'.

You cannot possibly have a mismatched brain and body. The two are inextricably linked. It's your brain in your body. There's no alternative. Have people with a mental disability got a mismatched brain? Have those born with a physical disability got a mismatched body? This is unscientific gender woo designed to reframe a mental health issue as a medical issue.

Because once it becomes a medical issue then it requires drugs and surgery, not therapy to explore the deeper issues and relieve the distress.

 

[monkers]

Hang on. It's you who has now said that some who claim to be women are faking it - totally at odds with your previous 'You are who you say you are' position. It's you who claim GRC holders are different from non GRC holders.

Stick grasped firmly by you at the wrong end. I've never said that there are no people who fake their identity. Impersonation is not a crime except in some circumstances such as impersonating a police officer. It's not only men guilty of impersonating people in order to commit crime either.

When we hear the case of a pensioner letting somebody in their house with fake ID of being from the gas board, we don't go on to demonise gas workers being all scallywags.

It is no more the fault of trans women that there are men who will impersonate them, than the fault of any others being impersonated. It might be easier for a predator to impersonate a trans woman than a cis woman. However there is the bias being applied here throughout the thread. The people that knew Wood including those who have had a relationship with him have said that his cross dressing was for manipulation. I was incorrect on a couple of points through a previous lack of information. I had not known that three separate appointments had been made at the GIC; he didn't attend any of them. He used his fake persona to present to housing officials as a vulnerable person for the purposes of queue jumping. Other prisoners described him variously, but always as a 'fake'.

You can search the thread all you like, but my position on prisoners had been an insistence on risk assessment, and for trans women in the loo as acceptance of self-ID - they used Self-ID when they came into the loo by choosing the facility appropriate to their needs.

 

[AuroraSaab]

.... even Aurora has given up claiming that Parker is 'fighting for women's rights' and is quietly distancing herself from the movement's UK figurehead.

I don't feel the need to distance myself from PP. She does her own thing and has never been the elected Head of British Feminism that you seem to imagine she is. What I will continue to defend is her right to have her meetings without being intimidated or assaulted. If she doesn't have that right - that women can meet in public, within the law, without fear of men assaulting them - then all the other achievements of feminism are actually worth sweet FA.

We've done Stock a bit as well, and not many people are convinced.

Convinced of what? She a fairly moderate and sensible voice on the gender critical side. Plenty of people seem to find her so.

I don't remember LGB Alliance being discussed much, but if the USP of your movement is that you're taking aim at the solidarity of an existing movement, you should expect to make some enemies.

There seem to be plenty of gay people who feel Stonewall have lost their way and would prefer a group that focuses just on the interests of the LGB. Plenty of room for groups with different aspirations surely.

 

[monkers]

Socialisation. Social conditioning. Men are no different, but not encouraged to talk about personal stuff as much so less likely to form the deep friendships that women often do, I would say. There's no ladybrain that has inexplicably found itself plonked in a male body.

In other words you formed a negative stereotype of men and used as the basis for your argument. And that's women's rights is it?