Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

Do they feel exactly the same though? ie think transwomen are women and should have access to all women's single sex spaces and services.

Part of it is understanding what is meant by trans rights. If you ask people do they support trans rights, they will say Yes because they think that means freedom from persecution, prejudice, discrimination. If you ask 'Should a disabled woman be able to insist on a same sex carer?', they will likely say Yes by a large margin - not understanding that that is an example of the right to exclude that transactivists want to do away with.

There's no mass support from women for transwomen to be in female sports. Why? Because it is where the difference between male and female is very stark and obvious. People are less likely to think through the implications of the same push for inclusion in other less obvious spheres. In fact they often don't even know about things like men being in women's jails or women's refuges.

Again answering for the majority, but again only you are allowed to do that.

The two questions you're asking are two different subjects, that you are somehow linking together to try to advance your argument.

How many carers are actually trans women or trans men by the way. If you can't give a figure, you're again using alarmist wording.

If they are legally a women, can I ask where should they be placed by the courts? Who will have had more information than you'll ever have to hand, when this decision is made.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I doubt it. I suspect there is (forgive me) a spectrum of views. So the ones that see things differently to you are simply thoughtless and/or ill informed, is that it?

Not thoughtless or uninformed, just unaware a lot of the time. I'm talking about the general public here obviously. There are certainly a small number of women who are vociferous transrights proponents - Nanci Kelley of Stonewall for example and certain sportswomen in the US - whose status and finances depend on their stance. There were several societies set up by women to oppose women being given the vote, so it's not exactly unusual that women don't always act in their own best interests.

As to a spectrum of views, what's funny is that you guys on here who think transwomen can use women's toilets but shouldn't be in women sports, or that you should use preferred pronouns but men shouldn't be in women's jails, you would be regarded as anti-trans by most transactivists. When they say punch a terf or decapitate terfs, they mean you too.

 

[Deleted member 159]

If they are legally a women, can I ask where should they be placed by the courts? Who will have had more information than you'll ever have to hand, when this decision is made.

The receiver of care can insist who touches them.

 

[classic33]

The receiver of care can insist who touches them.

How many courts send a carer round?

 

[Pale Rider]

When they say punch a terf or decapitate terfs, they mean you too.

The accused, Sara Jane Baker, was due before Westminster Mags yesterday in connection with her 'punch a terf' remark.

Can't see any reports from mainstream media, but I'm guessing her supporters will have posted something somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 159]

The accused, Sara Jane Baker, was due before Westminster Mags yesterday in connection with her 'punch a terf' remark.

Can't see any reports from mainstream media, but I'm guessing her supporters will have posted something somewhere.

No reporter's attending or was the case postponed?

 

[monkers]

The accused, Sara Jane Baker, was due before Westminster Mags yesterday in connection with her 'punch a terf' remark.

Can't see any reports from mainstream media, but I'm guessing her supporters will have posted something somewhere.

I think it has been delayed to August 17th pending a case review. I only think that because I read it in a newspaper, so don't blame me if it's incorrect.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Again answering for the majority, but again only you are allowed to do that.

Surveys do not show majority positive support for men to use women's single sex spaces and services.

The two questions you're asking are two different subjects, that you are somehow linking together to try to advance your argument.

The point is people support the general idea of transrights meaning freedom from discrimination. They are less supportive of specific examples.

How many carers are actually trans women or trans men by the way. If you can't give a figure, you're again using alarmist wording.

Stonewall want to take away the right in principle to have a same sex carer. The numbers are irreversible if the right is lost.

If they are legally a women, can I ask where should they be placed by the courts? Who will have had more information than you'll ever have to hand, when this decision is made.

In men's prisons, in the vulnerable wing if necessary. Because they are men.

The accused, Sara Jane Baker, was due before Westminster Mags yesterday in connection with her 'punch a terf' remark.

Can't see any reports from mainstream media, but I'm guessing her supporters will have posted something somewhere.

Remanded to a men's prison apparently. For further reports I assume.

(Edited for spelling.....)

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Surveys do not show majority positive support for men to use women's dingle sex spaces and services.

Is this a Barnsley thing?

 

[newfhouse]

it's not exactly unusual that women don't always act in their own best interests.

True. The argument seems to be about deciding what best serves those interests.

As to a spectrum of views, what's funny is that you guys on here who think transwomen can use women's toilets but shouldn't be in women sports, or that you should use preferred pronouns but men shouldn't be in women's jails, you would be regarded as anti-trans by most transactivists. When they say punch a terf or decapitate terfs, they mean you too.

Oh well. I'm still not persuaded that I have to choose one simple, all or nothing, harmful position over another.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think it has been delayed to August 17th pending a case review. I only think that because I read it in a newspaper, so don't blame me if it's incorrect.

Just a feeling, but that tends to suggest they may drop it - unless they are trying to whip up a more serious incitement charge.

Remanded to a men's prison apparently

I suspect that's the recall that happened on arrest.

If reports were called for at this stage, that would suggest a guilty plea - you can't do a report if you don't know what the punter is guilty of.

Adjournment to August 17 looks favourite - from the very limited info available.

 

[monkers]

Just a feeling, but that tends to suggest they may drop it - unless they are trying to whip up a more serious incitement charge.



I suspect that's the recall that happened on arrest.

If reports were called for at this stage, that would suggest a guilty plea - you can't do a report if you don't know what the punter is guilty of.

Adjournment to August 17 looks favourite - from the very limited info available.

She pleaded not guilty so I have read.

 

[Pale Rider]

She pleaded not guilty so I have read.

Ah, you didn't say that bit.

Normally the case would then be adjourned for trial.

But if the newspaper was accurate in saying it was adjourned for a 'case review', then the next steps will likely be as I've previously indicated.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Oh well. I'm still not persuaded that I have to choose one simple, all or nothing, harmful position over another.

I don't think people have to take the most radical position, from either side, either. I do think all you guys who say it's 'nuanced and complicated' might find you are regarded as anti-trans by many transactivists because you (seemingly) don't think transwomen should be treated exactly the same as women 100% of the time.

Stonewall want to take away the right in principle to have a same sex carer. The numbers are irreversible if the right is lost.

... should be 'irrelevant if the right is lost'.

 

[monkers]

There are women who say ''Sometimes biological reality isn't everything.''