Gender again. Sorry!

[Ian H]

Well clarify then, Ian.

I asked you previously to list what these feminine mannerisms were. Do you think there are male and female mannerisms that are innate? And as such, that when you exhibit these mannerisms it's not a performance? You tell me I'm insulting someone. Well I think it's pretty insulting to suggest there are female mannerisms - because the implication would be that someone not exhibiting them is somehow less female than other females. And that's not really possible is it?

Just read what I write instead of inventing stuff and claiming I said it. Nowhere have I even mentioned 'feminine mannerisms'.

 

[classic33]

If you advocate for self-ID then isn't that by default saying they should be treated as a woman in all circumstances? It's not self-ID otherwise. They can't be treated as a woman on Monday sitting at home, but treated as a man on Tuesday when they are arrested. If that's the case (a) you don't really want self-ID, and (b) you don't actually think they are a woman.

Why do you think they segregated prisons in the first place?

Just those highlighted in bold.
The whole post was quoted to avoid any claims of rewording being made. Normally done by me, nowt special.

Prisons were first segregated on the basis of the crime, the ability to pay and your social status.

Maybe you can answer the other question, raised by what you said in the same post.

 

[theclaud]

Just read what I write instead of inventing stuff and claiming I said it.

At least four different people, with varying positions on the subject of this thread and different approaches to the discussion and to forum argy-bargy, have said this to Aurora.

She's the Principal Skinner of CC.

 

[theclaud]

Its been added recently….. due to people using the C word i think, but maybe wrong.

Yes, you are wrong. It's been there all along.

 

[multitool]

Yes, you are wrong. It's been there all along.

I had rice noodles and prawns, since you ask

 

[AuroraSaab]

Just read what I write instead of inventing stuff and claiming I said it. Nowhere have I even mentioned 'feminine mannerisms'.

Apologies, Ian. It was Bromptonaut last week who used the term mannerisms.

I stand by my point that femininity and masculinity is a performance though, regardless of who is doing it. And it's not a metric of who is or isn't a man or a woman.

 

[theclaud]

LOL what's Ian done to land an apology?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Just those highlighted in bold.
The whole post was quoted to avoid any claims of rewording being made. Normally done by me, nowt special.

Prisons were first segregated on the basis of the crime, the ability to pay and your social status.

Maybe you can answer the other question, raised by what you said in the same post.

Which other question?

Should the Geneva Convention apply to peacetime? Isn't it a pretty good guide to decent conduct at all times? If we are setting the bar for dealing fairly with female prisoners at 'only when there's a war on' that's a bit low.

Who's advocating that they be moved to a women's prison? They can apply to be moved or allocated because of the self-ID policy. If you believe in the right to self-ID doesn't that imply that you think people should be allocated prisons based on their gender identity not their sex? It's not self-ID otherwise. It's self-ID sometimes, government decided ID at others.

Labour's Lisa Nandy and Alex Sobel have both said transgender prisoners should be housed in the prison of their choice in the past. Stonewall have campaigned for an end to all the single sex exemptions - which would include prisons surely. Plenty of backtracking this week of course, but the logical outcome of self-ID is that male bodied people will be entitled to be in female prisons.

 

[monkers]

While you are here @theclaud I'd like to offer you an apology for taking your thread off course with my usual guff about human rights etc.

 

[theclaud]

While you are here @theclaud I'd like to offer you an apology for taking your thread off course with my usual guff about human rights etc.

Thank you but none necessary. I'm not proprietorial about it and I've not had the energy to participate much myself anyway.

 

[AuroraSaab]

LOL what's Ian done to land an apology?

I confused him with Bromptonaut. I'd be happy to hear him clarify his views though as my impression was that he thinks femininity is somehow an innate trait that signifies femaleness whereas I don't. Perhaps he can explain what he means more fully.

A trans-female friend of mine is one of the most unselfconscious people I know. The idea that she somehow 'performs femininity' is as grossly insulting as it is untrue.

 

[classic33]

Which other question?

Should the Geneva Convention apply to peacetime? Isn't it a pretty good guide to decent conduct at all times? If we are setting the bar for dealing fairly with female prisoners at 'only when there's a war on' that's a bit low.

Who's advocating that they be moved to a women's prison? They can apply to be moved or allocated because of the self-ID policy. If you believe in the right to self-ID doesn't that imply that you think people should be allocated prisons based on their gender identity not their sex? It's not self-ID otherwise. It's self-ID sometimes, government decided ID at others.

Labour's Lisa Nandy and Alex Sobel have both said transgender prisoners should be housed in the prison of their choice in the past. Stonewall have campaigned for an end to all the single sex exemptions - which would include prisons surely. Plenty of backtracking this week of course, but the logical outcome of self-ID is that male bodied people will be entitled to be in female prisons.

I never said should, the question was "Does the Geneva Convention apply to civilians in domestic non-wartime settings "
You were the one who mentioned the Geneva Convention in relation to civillian prisons. You introduced the low you mentioned, not me.

You're saying that there are "vulnerable men in prisons who would be safer in a women's jail - disabled men, gay men, mentally vulnerable men" who would apply for a GRC just to be moved to a women's prison!

Previously you argued that those with mental issues should be moved outside of the prison system to a secure facility where they could receive treatment. As this would be "better for them" than a women's prison. Are you now saying that the disabled and gay be sent to seperate facilities? You lumped them all together, so I'll base this question on your lumping.
If you do believe that, then that's one hell of a regressive step, not progressive.

 

[theclaud]

I confused him with Bromptonaut. I'd be happy to hear him clarify his views though as my impression was that he thinks femininity is somehow an innate trait that signifies femaleness whereas I don't. Perhaps he can explain what he means more fully.

I think he's associating the word 'performance' with an implication of inauthenticity or pretending, which is of course one of its connotations, although it needn't mean either of those things. Indeed I hope it doesn't, or I am in the wrong business. I don't think he thinks the bit in bold

 

[monkers]

My Part 5 ~ prisons part 2 with Self ID.

All gender recognition is already Self-ID whether under medical supervision or not.

Scotland has just passed an act for Self-ID.

What it isn't!

Instant - Scottish Self-ID cuts the time from a minimum of 2 years, to 6 months.

Endangering women - there are no changes to the Equality Act 2010.

Assured prison access - Scotland policy on the allocation of prisoner places remains the same.



The myth, that is logical that all trans prisoners will be housed on the female prison estate following Self-ID.

The risk assessment process is unchanged, though the already planned review will continue.



The facts ...

Prisons​

The Scottish Prison Service makes decisions on the most appropriate location to accommodate transgender people in our prisons on an individual basis after careful consideration of all relevant factors, including the risks to and from the prisoner. Those are operational decisions.

Obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate does not automatically provide access to specific accommodation.

These decisions by the Scottish Prison Service seek to protect both the wellbeing and rights of the individual as well as the welfare and rights of others around them, including staff, in order to achieve an outcome that balances risks and promotes the safety of all.

The prison service is currently reviewing of its policy for trans prisoners. As part of this they are speaking with interested groups including prisoners and staff to hear their views around how transgender prisoners are managed. They are also undertaking public engagement as part of the process.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-more-information/

 

[monkers]

I think he's associating the word 'performance' with an implication of inauthenticity or pretending, which is of course one of its connotations, although it needn't mean either of those things. Indeed I hope it doesn't, or I am in the wrong business. I don't think he thinks the bit in bold

Oh shame, I was hoping it meant we're drag kings and queens.