Gender again. Sorry!

[Deleted member 159]

Snp are on a roll at the moment

latest well considered plan, alienate the voting electorate parents with.....

Parents who refuse to allow their children to change gender would face up to seven years in jail under SNP plans to ban “conversion therapy”.

Critics argue the proposals would have a devastating impact on freedom of speech, privacy and family life in Scotland.

Religious campaigners have vowed to fight the ban in the courts

We have grave concerns that these plans will criminalise loving parents, who could face years in jail simply for refusing to sign up to the gender ideology cult,

Way to go SNP

 

[AndyRM]

Conversion "therapy" is barbaric. It also doesn't work.

 

[monkers]

Snp are on a roll at the moment

latest well considered plan, alienate the voting electorate parents with.....

Parents who refuse to allow their children to change gender would face up to seven years in jail under SNP plans to ban “conversion therapy”.

Critics argue the proposals would have a devastating impact on freedom of speech, privacy and family life in Scotland.

Religious campaigners have vowed to fight the ban in the courts

We have grave concerns that these plans will criminalise loving parents, who could face years in jail simply for refusing to sign up to the gender ideology cult,

Way to go SNP

The Scottish plans do not breach international law - the sick Westminster intention do. The UK government has drained the puddle of available 'talent'. Everybody knows their tenure is short-lived. Nobody takes them seriously except for a few moronic Daily Express readers - that's you and about four others.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Conversion "therapy" is barbaric. It also doesn't work.

Exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy. It's possible to ban actual conversion therapy without criminalising parents who want their children to have appropriate psychological care before going down a medical or surgical route. All this will do is make clinicians reluctant to see children with body dysphoria for fear of being investigated by the authorities, leading to worse standards of care not better.

 

[AndyRM]

Exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy. It's possible to ban actual conversion therapy without criminalising parents who want their children to have appropriate psychological care before going down a medical or surgical route. All this will do is make clinicians reluctant to see children with body dysphoria for fear of being investigated by the authorities, leading to worse standards of care not better.

No sh!t? That's why I didn't mention it, because it's not what the SNP are proposing banning.

 

[monkers]

Exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy. It's possible to ban actual conversion therapy without criminalising parents who want their children to have appropriate psychological care before going down a medical or surgical route. All this will do is make clinicians reluctant to see children with body dysphoria for fear of being investigated by the authorities, leading to worse standards of care not better.

When you think that being trans is just about 'body dysmorphia' then you don't understand what it means to be trans. To be fair this is a problem unintentionally created by those who used to say 'born in the wrong body'. It was supposed to be helpful for those who couldn't understand; but it is played back in this negative way, because they still can't understand.

As N once explained here, she knew she was 'not a boy' at age before she knew that boys and girls bodies were different. She was beaten by her parents for saying so. The desire is there to be treated in the societal / cultural role. N wanted to be treated as a girl, not a boy by her parents. Even at that very young age, N was aware that boys are groomed from a young age to be aggressive and violent, She did not want rough and tumble games with her father who tried to insist at age three that she learned 'how to punch' and how to hurt others.

Just as there are those who follow the 'pink stinks' campaign for the barbification of girls, and followers of Greer who believe that fathers who ask daughters for a goodnight kiss are grooming girls to be at the service of men, there is this mistaken belief that every action is instigated for the purpose of preparation for service in one's sex.

When trans people go through transition, it is not because their sole objective is to fetishise their bodies for sexual pleasure. How could it be when they know they will lose the functions of sex for pleasure and reproduction? These are seen by trans individuals as costs rather than benefits in order to live a life that fits with their knowledge of their identity.

This constructed narrative with all the continual hyperbole about trans people is bound up by personal fear, which being as it is irrational is a phobia; a phobia of trans people, while these people deny that they can not be transphobic. It is as irrational as those people who say they are uncomfortable queuing in the post office with people with a brown skin - and yes I've heard them. It's funny what one white person will say to another white person believing that this shared characteristic will give them the same beliefs.

To hear gender critical people go so far as to claim that they are helping protect lesbians is an absurdity. Speaking for myself I think it insulting that people use this supposed lesbian vulnerability in order to attack a marginalised group that we, the majority of lesbians try to protect from aggressive women.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The danger is that refusing to affirm a child's transgender identity from the outset would leave a counsellor or psychologist open to investigation. I'm not against banning outright conversion programmes but there needs to be space for clinicians to explore all the issues that a child especially, but adults also, present with, rather than immediate affirmation being the only acceptable option.

Edit. If you don't have exploratory therapy that doesn't automatically affirm a transgender identity, then you will find it much harder to distinguish between those for whom it is a passing phase and those for whom it is a deep seated issue, the distress of which might eventually only be resolved by drugs or even surgery. It's not appropriate to map one person's experience on to that of every child who presents at a gender clinic.

 

[monkers]

The danger is that refusing to affirm a child's transgender identity from the outset would leave a counsellor or psychologist open to investigation. I'm not against banning outright conversion programmes but there needs to be space for clinicians to explore all the issues that a child especially, but adults also, present with, rather than immediate affirmation being the only acceptable option.

Again, this is something that you can't have thought through. You've argued for a total ban on blockers, hormones, and surgeries for young people. You say you are not against conversion therapy, but you want complete denial of services. What can be the point of these exploratory conversations if they can not lead to progression? What you want is a trans ban, but don't people to say about you that you are anti-trans or transphobic.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Banning life changing non reversible treatment to children and young adults is totally appropriate.

Research has clearly indicates that monitoring children/ young adults in full adulthood the vast majority pass through the trans phase, recognise they're gay and settle into adult life.

No harm is done, that isn't reversible by following this path.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm against puberty blockers and surgery for under 18's. There's no sound data that puberty blockers are effective in relieving distress long term, there are issues about consent to drugs and surgery with under 18's, and the long term effects of pb's are unknown. This is what the Cass Report found and why numerous European countries are also rolling back on drugs for minors at gender clinics.

Psychotherapy is appropriate care. Psychotherapy alone for under 18's isn't a denial of service. Saying that children under 18 aren't getting appropriate care unless they can have access to drugs or castration or breast removal is nonsense.

For some people exploratory therapy will eventually lead to drugs and surgery, for others it won't. Leaving therapists open to investigation or even prosecution for refusing to affirm at the outset those who are referred with body or gender issues isn't providing a good standard of care.

 

[AndyRM]

Banning life changing non reversible treatment to children and young adults is totally appropriate.

Research has clearly indicates that monitoring children/ young adults in full adulthood the vast majority pass through the trans phase, recognise they're gay and settle into adult life.

No harm is done, that isn't reversible by following this path.

This research you're unwilling to cite has been repeatedly questioned both because of when it was undertaken, and the methodology.

Being trans =/= being gay.

 

[classic33]

I'm against puberty blockers and surgery for under 18's. There's no sound data that puberty blockers are effective in relieving distress long term, there are issues about consent to drugs and surgery with under 18's, and the long term effects of pb's are unknown. This is what the Cass Report found and why numerous European countries are also rolling back on drugs for minors at gender clinics.

Psychotherapy is appropriate care. Psychotherapy alone for under 18's isn't a denial of service. Saying that children under 18 aren't getting appropriate care unless they can have access to drugs or castration or breast removal is nonsense.

For some people exploratory therapy will eventually lead to drugs and surgery, for others it won't. Leaving therapists open to investigation or even prosecution for refusing to affirm at the outset those who are referred with body or gender issues isn't providing a good standard of care.

Yet access to the pill(another drug), is legal from the age of 13 without the parents consent or the parents having to be informed.

 

[AuroraSaab]

This research you're unwilling to cite has been repeatedly questioned both because of when it was undertaken, and the methodology.

Being trans =/= being gay.

60% of girls referred to the Tavistock gender clinic were same sex attracted. Sounds like something a therapist would want to explore before they said 'I agree, you're actually a boy'. A comprehensive 'conversion therapy' ban wouldn't allow that.

Yet access to the pill(another drug), is legal from the age of 13 without the parents consent or the parents having to be informed.

The contraceptive pill has a much better, much longer history of being used as a safe medicine than puberty blockers. It's used to provide medical care by preventing pregnancy or to help heavy periods, not to alleviate a mental health condition that can be initially addressed through therapy. It still has risks and isn't given out lightly. There are decades of high quality data on the risks and long term effects. The effects of long term puberty blockers are irreversible and it's questionable that children can knowingly understand and properly consent to them.

 

[AndyRM]

60% of girls referred to the Tavistock gender clinic were same sex attracted. Sounds like something a therapist would want to explore before they said 'I agree, you're actually a boy'. A comprehensive 'conversion therapy' ban wouldn't allow that.



The contraceptive pill has a much better, much longer history of being used as a safe medicine than puberty blockers. It's used to provide medical care by preventing pregnancy or to help heavy periods, not to alleviate a mental health condition that can be initially addressed through therapy. It still has risks and isn't given out lightly. There are decades of high quality data on the risks and long term effects. The effects of long term puberty blockers are irreversible and it's questionable that children can knowingly understand and properly consent to them.

I could be wrong, but I didn't think you were a fan of Tavistock, so I don't think that citing their stats is entirely reasonable.

I agree with you on the pill though. It's not really comparable.

 

[monkers]

Banning life changing non reversible treatment to children and young adults is totally appropriate.

Research has clearly indicates that monitoring children/ young adults in full adulthood the vast majority pass through the trans phase, recognise they're gay and settle into adult life.

No harm is done, that isn't reversible by following this path.

Your evidence? The Daily Express is not a source of evidence.

The no harm is done bit is clearly nonsense.