Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

I think this is very true. However the Scottish GRC Bill removes a requirement for medical diagnosis, removing the requirement to live as a woman for 2 years and dropping the age limit. This effectively means that any man can apply to become a woman without having to dress as a woman, take hormones, have surgery or do anything remotely feminine. Once they have their GRC they are then a woman.

This is great for people who genuinely have a problem and feel that the solution is to transition. However removing all checks and balances is also great for any predatory male who wants to take advantage. It's hard to believe, but there are men out there that will try to take advantage. "Yeah - I reckon if I become a woman I can get a crack at some pussy in a female prison mate - gotta be worth a try, it's either that or big Dave's gonna have a crack at me...". Or "No Mike - you cannot have access to your wife and we will not confirm whether she is staying here... (3 months later) - hi Michelle - you need refuge? - come in...".

I don't think that "ah well - you must have been raped / attacked by an outlier" is going to be much reassurance to many women. Lesbian groups are also concerned about men with GRCs presenting as Lesbian. "Yes, I am a lesbian - ignore the penis and beard - what? YOU TRANSPHOBE!".

We need to balance the needs of this small and vulnerable group of people with the needs of a much larger group of vulnerable people. If everything is on one side, it is not balanced.

I don't think you can have remembered what I have posted, though I have done so more than once.

The Equality Act 2010 and case law since then say that it is unlawful to commit all trans women to male prisons by default. A blanket ban is pure discrimination.

The Equality makes clear that where it is reasonable to say that prisoners whose record shows that they are a danger to women, are not to be considered for inclusion in a women's prison.

The prison service have the legal competence to decide who is placed where. Though a judge may recommend a placement, the prison service are not obliged to follow the recommendation. They are the ones with the legal competence to carry out a careful risk assessment and manage places on a case by case remit. Where they mess up, it is correct for the public to express concern, and it correct for ministers to intervene where mistakes are made.

Isla Bryson's placement was not the result of a human right to be a women's prison, it was not protected by the 2004 Act, not the 2010 Act. It was not recommended by the judge. The prison service made the judgement. I acknowledge that a mistake was made - but not as a result of faulty legislation, poor law enforcement, or the CPs, or the judiciary, or the judge, or Nicola Sturgeon, or the wider trans community.

The fault lies with the prison service who have made a couple of other mistakes, and so has the prison service in Scotland. These services are outsourced meaning that one eye of the decisions made by prison services is profit for shareholders. This is the wrong model and those of us who agree that the wrong call was made should challenge it, but by challenging those who are making the errors while remembering that we must also criticise those who arranged for the needs of shareholders factor into risk assessment.

A blanket ban would that a trans person of say ten years with a clean record could be committed to prison for choosing to watch live TV repeatedly without a licence because they don't agree with the licencing fee.

Where is the evidence of harm to women that should lead to a commitment to a mens prison? Where would the Equality Act lead to on that, the case law, the judges recommendation?

Whatever people like to think, and they are entitled to think what they like, law attempts to make us a civilised society where every individual's rights are respected. There is no court of public opinion.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Are you saying you didn't say 'I've yet to hear a transwoman say 'I'm not a transwoman, I'm a woman'? You said it yesterday on the Nicola Sturgeon thread. And then I gave examples of your chosen screenshot India Willoughby doing it twice this week alone. I could find you dozens in 5 minutes.

 

[multitool]

No, you gave examples of her saying she's a woman. This is not the same as denying she is a trans woman.

 

[monkers]

I'm not after likes, I'm after solutions.

But no one really seems to come up with any useful solutions.
Whereas they're all over solutions and options for all the other problems.

If you suggest men - even men on here should and could actively do more to tackle it.
It's

"Oh but me and my mates aren't like that"

As if that was the end of it.

I have given a solution - campaign against the people who cause the failure, not against the rights of people who happen to share a characteristic.

The solution is that simple in reason. Westminster government is hard to reach on these matters, forming a protective bubble around themselves. In the case of Scotland, Sturgeon reacted when she heard of the prison service's decision and acted, and rapidly at that.

Meanwhile I see sensationalist propaganda posted on the thread - not helpful to those looking for solution to errors made.

 

[Ian H]

I'm not after likes, I'm after solutions.

But no one really seems to come up with any useful solutions.
Whereas they're all over solutions and options for all the other problems.

If you suggest men - even men should and could actively do more to tackle it.
It's

"Oh but me and my mates aren't like that"

As if that was the end of it.

It's not the end of it at all. I spent seven years in the 80s as a volunteer youth-worker. Currently I'm just listening to various ideas on how to increase female participation in various forms of cycling. And I will challenge others' views.

 

[AuroraSaab]

No, you gave examples of her saying she's a woman. This is not the same as denying she is a trans woman.

So transwomen aren't women then? We agree at last.

 

[Unkraut]

Right. So I didn't say it then.

Now apologise.

I would be careful if I were you in case the day comes when you find someone has taken your top of the range bike and put it through her combine harvester ...

 

[multitool]

So transwomen aren't women then? We agree at last.

The Queen of Misrepresentation Strikes again!!

 

[monkers]

Trans women are women. Trans women are not cis women. Trans women are trans women.

Under the Equality Act trans women have the protected characteristic of their legal sex = women.

Under the Equality Act trans women have the protected characteristic of the legal gender identity = women.

 

[mudsticks]

Right. So I didn't say it then.

Now apologise.

The fact that you've 'never heard' a transwoman saying 'all transwomen are women'

Is how I paraphrased what you said, without checking ..

You in fact said .

Weird. I've yet to hear a trans woman say "I'm not a trans woman, I'm a woman".

Is the same meaning, different order of words.

You see fit to tone police, and accuse people of hectoring, post childish pictures of vuvuzelas, and then come out with stuff like "now apologise"

What a joke 🙄

 

[multitool]

No it is not the same meaning, but I'm not surprised that you struggle to realise this.

You are so busy acting as a self-appointed moderator you don't take the time to actually think about what people are saying.

A less arrogant person would apologise.

 

[mudsticks]

I would be careful if I were you in case the day comes when you find someone has taken your top of the range bike and put it through her combine harvester ...

What kind of an animal do you think I am Unkers.??

Just cos I'm a farmer doesn't make me uncivilised.

Like I'd want to damage a decent piece of farm kit.. Or bicycle for that matter ??

 

[AuroraSaab]

The Scottish Prison Service don't make their policy independently of the Scottish government. It was a policy decision to put transwomen in female prisons that had government approval.

It was a policy first developed in 2014 in association with the Scottish Transgender Alliance. The first draft was written by one of their staff, James Morton.

History here, and explanation of why having a GRC and the Haldane ruling would make the updated Scottish government position untenable (as I Cowden has pointed out).

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.or...he-gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-2/

 

[icowden]

The Equality Act 2010 and case law since then say that it is unlawful to commit all trans women to male prisons by default. A blanket ban is pure discrimination.

Ah, but if transwomen are women and have a GRC proving that that is so, then they are being discriminated against.

The Equality makes clear that where it is reasonable to say that prisoners whose record shows that they are a danger to women, are not to be considered for inclusion in a women's prison.

Does this include women who are a danger to women?

The prison service have the legal competence to decide who is placed where. Though a judge may recommend a placement, the prison service are not obliged to follow the recommendation. They are the ones with the legal competence to carry out a careful risk assessment and manage places on a case by case remit. Where they mess up, it is correct for the public to express concern, and it correct for ministers to intervene where mistakes are made.

I agree. However there are some legal risks.
https://www.lawscot.org.uk/members/...ation in,or their actual, gender reassignment.

The key legal points to consider are:

1.5.1 Wherever possible transgender suspects or offenders have to be placed in a prison along with people from their chosen non-birth gender, whether or not they have changed their physical sex appearance or received a gender-recognition certificate.

1.5.2 This approach may only be varied under special circumstances where, for example, health and safety risks necessitate accommodation of a trans inmate along with prisoners from their birth gender or in isolation.

So legally unless the prison service can demonstrate that there are special circumstances denying "Big Dave" from a transfer to a women's prison, he is entitled to be there if he says he is a woman. He doesn't even need the GRC, although he could get one to boost his claim without any diagnosis, surgery or lifestyle changes). If he says he is a woman, he is a woman. That's all there is to it.

 

[icowden]

A less arrogant person would apologise.