Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

A thought has just occurred to me that hasn't really been touched upon at all in the discussion on Scottish GRA Bill and its alleged conflict with UK law.

We already have a land border with a country with Self ID and have had for 7 years. Whilst accepting that the UK's legal relationship with Ireland is not the same as with Scotland, Northern Ireland is the UK's area of highest immigration because of its border with Ireland, and therefore we ought to be able to see some of the problems that are envisaged to be inevitable if the Scottish GRA Bill receives Royal Assent.

 

[mudsticks]

For the avoidance of doubt, I'd like to point out that I'm not saying that all of the questioning, or concerns around the upholding of transrights, are the product of rabid rw media.

There are some genuine concerns here, particularly around the potential impingement of women's rights.

Calling anyone who wants to have a grown up conversation about this potential conflict, a 'transphobe' or a 'terf' is falling into the same absolutist way of thinking, or accusatory dialogue that we claim to abhor in the populist press.

 

[multitool]

Unless of course they are a Terf. In which case, if the cap fits...



I mean TERF means 'trans exclusionary radical feminist'. It refers to feminists but who exclude the rights of transgender people, particularly  trans women, from their women’s rights advocacy.



If we take this thread, I can see one person who fits that description neatly. It is literally her position.

 

[monkers]

A lot of the argument rather than debate, as already has been pointed out by extensive use of outliers. The term outlier is not without definition.

One problem is that when it is repeated often enough, a majority of listeners take a position of ignorance. This is how political campaigns work.
At the moment every news story connected to trans people includes reference to the outlier that is Isla Bryson. The result is that people start to believe that all or at least so many trans people are vicious thugs, paedophiles, rapists, predators seeking to gain access to women, including more vulnerable women. The behaviour of a very few trans people is monstrous, but so it is of some cis men and some cis women.

The call for trans rights is not to allow outliers like Bryson to have access to women's spaces. Collectively trans women do not transition to harm women, very much the opposite.

When the system fails, it fails due to incompetence of others. These are political failures, the larger trans community are not responsible.

Our challenge is to change the system, not to demonise minorities.

There is a growing problem of toxic masculinity, and not just in the UK. My female teacher friends are telling me that they hear misygnostic hatred from teenage boys in school every school day. There is a growing on-line presence of this.

This may be off topic, but I will draw your attention to incels. This is a growing on-line movement of men, mostly social misfits who spend their leisure time promoting the hatred of women, and of men who are 'successful' with women. The purpose of this movement is hatred.
Teenage school boys are acting out this hatred in school.

In my opinion a great deal more needs to be done to protect women from this harm, and the harm to the reputation of decent men.

On the other hand, trans people are not movements founded on hate of others, they are founded on survival of self.

While the media are portraying trans women as mostly predators on the basis of an outlier such as Isla Bryson, creating an unnecessary moral panic in the process, they are not pointing to Andrew Tate and saying that this is what the majority of men are like on the basis of one outlier even though there is that movement with the purpose of harming women. I will argue that they also damage the reputation of decent men.

Therefore I urge people to attack the political failures of our age; the failure of outsourced services for prisons for example for repeatedly getting it wrong, the structural racism, the structural misogyny, and sexism including androgyny for that matter.

The battle of the sexes has never seemed so real, we must deal with it by one way or another.

Women repeat that parliament is an essentially toxic place - yet we (as in we collectively in the country) elected them. It's up to us all to do better.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Re: Terf.

No radical feminist excludes transmen from their feminism. Why would they? They're women. The only requirement to be a transman is to be female.

They do exclude men though, regardless of how they identify.

 

[multitool]

A lot of the argument rather than debate, as already has been pointed out by extensive use of outliers. The term outlier is not without definition.

Indeed. I put up a definition earlier in the thread and did the relevant maths to demonstrate that the much-cited examples of predatory trans women are indeed outliers.

And yet, AS persisted with posting up photos and tabloid press reports. As you say, the effect of this is to make people associate trans women with 'predator'. This tactic is to be found all over transphobe social media, which is, of course, where AS sources them. They did not, after all, fall out of the sky.

In relation to the rest of your post, I will say this, again: It might be the T now, but afterwards it will be the other letters and then Women. It is already happening in the USA.

 

[AuroraSaab]

While the media are portraying trans women as mostly predators on the basis of an outlier such as Isla Bryson, creating an unnecessary moral panic in the process, they are not pointing to Andrew Tate and saying that this is what the majority of men are like on the basis of one outlier even though there is that movement with the purpose of harming women. I will argue that they also damage the reputation of decent men.

Isla Bryson should be excluded from the female prison estate because they are male, not because they are trans. In terms of their crime they are not an outlier - rape is almost exclusively a male crime. 98% of UK sex offenders are male.

There's no magical thing that happens to your statistical risk to women when you start identifying as female. And women in prison, and other spaces, have a right to privacy and dignity as well as safety.

If this was just about being mean to trans people then women would be campaigning for transmen to be housed in men's prisons. They aren't.

 

[monkers]

Indeed. I put up a definition earlier in the thread and did the relevant maths to demonstrate that the much-cited examples of predatory trans women are indeed outliers.

And yet, AS persisted with posting up photos and tabloid press reports. As you say, the effect of this is to make people associate trans women with 'predator'. This tactic is to be found all over transphobe social media, which is, of course, where AS sources them. They did not, after all, fall out of the sky.

In relation to the rest of your post, I will say this, again: It might be the T now, but afterwards it will be the other letters and then Women. It is already happening in the USA.

It is indeed deceitful. I was waiting to see if other people would notice the implication of mischievous posting.

The substitution of the word 'transgender' to trans woman was one case in point. i wrote about that.

I troubled to read the article. It says that the sentence did not include committal to any prison let alone a women's prison. I acknowledge that the offender may have been remanded there, but even then it can not be assumed the prisoner had access to other prisoners, yet the language of the reporting in other places was that they were 'free to roam'.

We can rely on the media for sensationalism it seems more than we can for accurate reporting.

 

[monkers]

Isla Bryson should be excluded from the female prison estate because they are male, not because they are trans. In terms of their crime they are not an outlier - rape is almost exclusively a male crime. 98% of UK sex offenders are male.

There's no magical thing that happens to your statistical risk to women when you start identifying as female. And women in prison, and other spaces, have a right to privacy and dignity as well as safety.

If this was just about being mean to trans people then women would be campaigning for transmen to be housed in men's prisons. They aren't.

You are attempting to bait me into one of your futile arguments by quoting me. I've already asked to be left alone. Go away.

 

[AuroraSaab]

And yet, AS persisted with posting up photos and tabloid press reports. As you say, the effect of this is to make people associate trans women with 'predator'. This tactic is to be found all over transphobe social media, which is, of course, where AS sources them. They did not, after all, fall out of the sky.

In relation to the rest of your post, I will say this, again: It might be the T now, but afterwards it will be the other letters and then Women. It is already happening in the USA.

It's men. Men are the predators. It's men who are a risk to women and girls. It's male bodies that we feel uncomfortable around in the changing rooms. And that doesn't change because they identify as something else or because of what they are wearing.

The US right wing might well be taking advantage of the current situation to promote their own agenda. That doesn't mean women's concerns are not valid. Why should women stop talking about things that concern them simply because right wing men are pursuing a different agenda?

Your relentless attempts to spin women's concerns about their rights to single sex spaces as transphobic, hateful, and bigoted, says more about you than it does about them.

You are attempting to bait me into one of your futile arguments by quoting me. I've already asked to be left alone. Go away.

It's a public forum. Anyone is free to answer the points raised. You frequently respond to points I have raised. I'll try to remember not to quote you though.

 

[multitool]

Your relentless attempts to spin women's concerns about their rights to single sex spaces as transphobic, hateful, and bigoted, says more about you than it does about them.

It's not really "women's concerns about their rights to single sex spaces" though, is it. It's a one-woman campaign.

And what does it say about the women who say the same as me?

After all, they outnumber you on this thread, and in the general population.

Why do you dismiss the views of women?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Am I the only woman in the UK concerned about women's rights? I'd be surprised.

Do you mean on this forum? Probably several reasons. Very few women contributing to CC at all anyway. Might be men who feel unable to post because they feel it doesn't concern them, or feel they don't know enough about the issues, or are scared of saying the wrong thing that offends women or offends trans people. Perhaps they don't want to be called transphobic right wing bigots for wanting single sex prisons? Who knows.

I don't dismiss the views of women. I don't have to agree with women who I think are wrong though either, just because they are women.

There's no evidence your views are the views of the general public on this matter, nevermind just women. Unless you're still talking about your bog survey where a phenomenal 51% of women didn't mind sharing a toilet.

(Edited for spelling)

 

[mudsticks]

It's not really "women's concerns about their rights to single sex spaces" though, is it. It's a one-woman campaign.

And what does it say about the women who say the same as me?

After all, they outnumber you on this thread, and in the general population.

Why do you dismiss the views of women?

I don't think it's up to you to tell AS how she feels or what her position is - that's just arrogant
.

Certainly not to be calling her names like 'terf' - that's just plain rude
But that's OK for you to do it because??

She's not 'dismissing the views of women' we are not one homogeneous block of people - you seem to be able to comprehend 'complexity and nuance' in other spheres of life , but not here, for some reason.
That there can be many positions on this that will change depending on the situation

There are genuine concerns among many women about their rights to safe spaces.
And we know primarily why they are concerned about those - but the bandwagon of tackling male violence and 'macho culture' in general against women and girls doesn't seem such a popular one to jump on..
Why is that??

Many women are generally happy to have transwomen around the vast majority of the time and will say so.
But being women they may not even like to voice concerns in certain areas of their life because it's expected they will be nice and placatory , and make sure everyone else is 'comfortable' before they think of themselves.

It's not just the fear of being physically assaulted, or even feeling uncomfortable in terms of undressed, or vulnerable - eg prisons, refuges etc
It's also having the chance to fully and freely discuss certain issues, or work through problems without having loudmouthed guys who think they know it all, shouting simplistic 'solutions' to issues that don't even arise for them.

Your real or imagined set piece where you shouted 'all transwomen are women' in the vicinity of your wife, and she didn't react, rather goes to show how little you really understand all the issues at play here, and how you'll use it to raise a really rather juvenile laugh.

You said at some point that men don't see sexism so much because they don't directly experience it
I'm giving you an example where it occurs a lot, that also you may not be fully aware of.
Men talking over women, goofing around, making inappropriate jokes and effectively silencing them.

It's part of our unquestioned 'culture' as is unconcious sexist bias.

When I run women + events here (which includes transwomen and non binary people,) the atmosphere is markedly different, because it's supportive, non judgemental, and people are not nearly so black or white in their thinking or even certainty of their 'correctness' as when we have guys onsite (I also run events where men are present too so I have a direct comparison)

That woman+only space is valuable, in the case of what we do , having transwomen here is absolutely fine.
In other situations it wouldn't be appropriate.


I wonder how many transpeople you actually know or come into contact with on a regular basis.?
The fact that you've 'never heard' a transwoman saying 'all transwomen are women' suggests to me that you've not really had that much close contact, because that is said very regularly.

The ones I know are certainly not all like the 'suck my dick' banner wavers as has been portrayed. They are also considerate of tensions and difficulties in this whole issue.

Just as supporters of women's rights are not all trying to deny the rights of transpeople.

But of course you won't see those sorts at protests or even on the telly because they're not 'entertaining' or newsworthy enough.

 

[mudsticks]

A lot of the argument rather than debate, as already has been pointed out by extensive use of outliers. The term outlier is not without definition.

One problem is that when it is repeated often enough, a majority of listeners take a position of ignorance. This is how political campaigns work.
At the moment every news story connected to trans people includes reference to the outlier that is Isla Bryson. The result is that people start to believe that all or at least so many trans people are vicious thugs, paedophiles, rapists, predators seeking to gain access to women, including more vulnerable women. The behaviour of a very few trans people is monstrous, but so it is of some cis men and some cis women.

The call for trans rights is not to allow outliers like Bryson to have access to women's spaces. Collectively trans women do not transition to harm women, very much the opposite.

When the system fails, it fails due to incompetence of others. These are political failures, the larger trans community are not responsible.

Our challenge is to change the system, not to demonise minorities.

There is a growing problem of toxic masculinity, and not just in the UK. My female teacher friends are telling me that they hear misygnostic hatred from teenage boys in school every school day. There is a growing on-line presence of this.

This may be off topic, but I will draw your attention to incels. This is a growing on-line movement of men, mostly social misfits who spend their leisure time promoting the hatred of women, and of men who are 'successful' with women. The purpose of this movement is hatred.
Teenage school boys are acting out this hatred in school.

In my opinion a great deal more needs to be done to protect women from this harm, and the harm to the reputation of decent men.

On the other hand, trans people are not movements founded on hate of others, they are founded on survival of self.

While the media are portraying trans women as mostly predators on the basis of an outlier such as Isla Bryson, creating an unnecessary moral panic in the process, they are not pointing to Andrew Tate and saying that this is what the majority of men are like on the basis of one outlier even though there is that movement with the purpose of harming women. I will argue that they also damage the reputation of decent men.

Therefore I urge people to attack the political failures of our age; the failure of outsourced services for prisons for example for repeatedly getting it wrong, the structural racism, the structural misogyny, and sexism including androgyny for that matter.

The battle of the sexes has never seemed so real, we must deal with it by one way or another.

Women repeat that parliament is an essentially toxic place - yet we (as in we collectively in the country) elected them. It's up to us all to do better.

Feel free to head over to the Who cares thread Monkers to chat about this .

Where I posted something about all this only this morning.

I certainly don't need the existence of incels drawing to my attention.
I'm one of the few people who discusses those problems here.

Most guys seem to be of the opinion that so long as they or 'their mates' don't have these behaviours then that's the best they can manage.

And I'm also very aware that so much of what is 'wrong' with our society comes down to system failures.

I'm in the business of system change myself.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I find the 'You can't talk about X until you've solved poverty, the NHS, lack of democracy, world hunger, and climate change' a very perplexing argument.