Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

We can see with our eyes the advantages male puberty brings, lowered testosterone or not. We know from comparisons of sports records that even if men and women are the same height, weight etc. in their sport, men will do better.

View attachment 3024

With our own eyes we can see 2 cis males who have not undergone oestrogen treatment to lower their testosterone. If they had they would not look like that, so your post and photo is (typically) disingenuous.

There's a really good video interview with Pippa York (né Robert Millar), who pre-Team Sky was the highest ever British placer in the TdF 4th in '84), she semi reluctantly talks about trans issues and trans women in sport. Reluctantly because she makes it clear that she has no axe to grind and really doesn't want to get involved. She makes one comment, which is to say that the hormone treatment utterly devastated her athletic ability and she felt that she could no longer be competitive at any level anywhere, including women's sports.

Notwithstanding this, as I said earlier, I think the issue is nowhere near resolved.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's not complex though. It doesn't require a knowledge of sport. It's clear to anybody with a pair of eyes. Laurel Hubbard in the Olympics at 43 when female (and male) weightlifters usually peak at 25 or 26. Lia Thomas going from below 100th in the Men's class to winning in the Women's.

You can cry gish gallop or whatever your latest insult is all you like. We all know it's not that complicated. We do know it's unfair.

 

[AuroraSaab]

With our own eyes we can see 2 cis males who have not undergone oestrogen treatment to lower their testosterone. If they had they would not look like that, so your post and photo is (typically) disingenuous.

They would still have higher testosterone than the 2 women swimmers. And they would still have benefitted from the boost of male puberty in terms of lung capacity, muscle size, heart volume and pumping capacity. These advantages might be reduced but can't be undone.

They might well be slower than before but they still have an unfair advantage over women.

 

[monkers]

It's not complex though. It doesn't require a knowledge of sport. It's clear to anybody with a pair of eyes. Laurel Hubbard in the Olympics at 43 when female (and male) weightlifters usually peak at 25 or 26. Lia Thomas going from below 100th in the Men's class to winning in the Women's.

You can cry gish gallop or whatever your latest insult is all you like. We all know it's not that complicated. We do know it's unfair.

I don't your permission to recuse. I'm not going to get into a game of top trumps and waste time challenging gish gallop.

It's a complex issue, though I don't doubt you have all the answers. 😉

 

[Rusty Nails]

Hiya

There's a new study published. You might find this helpful ...
https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/f...lbHruCJDOWm2X7feQRwUdFwO1UnPSRFSnOYanXiZWKrK0

All studies can be helpful but one of the problems I have with overall decisions/opinions based on studies like this is that it is easily possible to find other studies that have different conclusions. All apparently carried out by experts, hopefully with no axe to grind and all of which can be used to support different opinions, and we can end up in a "my expert is better than yours" stand-off.

Sport is a huge, coverall term that includes things like showjumping, archery, sprinting, marathons, tennis, bowls, boxing, rugby, gymnastics, weightlifting etc., all of which require different physical characteristics such as speed, strength, stamina, timing, accuracy, and I cannot see how any study could cover trans athletes' relative performance in all or even most of those categories in a meaningful way.

 

[monkers]

All studies can be helpful but one of the problems I have with overall decisions/opinions based on studies like this is that it is easily possible to find other studies that have different conclusions. All apparently carried out by experts, hopefully with no axe to grind and all of which can be used to support different opinions, and we can end up in a "my expert is better than yours" stand-off.

Sport is a huge, coverall term that includes things like showjumping, archery, sprinting, marathons, tennis, bowls, boxing, rugby, gymnastics, weightlifting etc., all of which require different physical characteristics such as speed, strength, stamina, timing, accuracy, and I cannot see how any study could cover trans athletes' relative performance in all or even most of those categories in a meaningful way.

Thanks Rusty. Yes, we agree. But the review does not say that trans women have no advantage. I could understand the protest if it did.

 

[classic33]

I edited my post a few minutes ago to say 'report' actually, before you posted. There is simply no quality peer reviewed research that shows there is no retained male advantage in most sports. This shonky report does nothing but say that inclusion is more important than a level playing field.

We can see with our eyes the advantages male puberty brings, lowered testosterone or not. We know from comparisons of sports records that even if men and women are the same height, weight etc. in their sport, men will do better.

View attachment 3024

I've a relative who is 6'4", her husband(my cousin) is 6'7". She's built like the proverbial s*** brick house. All natural, and a regular exercise regime have maintained her looks.

She can lift, throw and run further, faster, than I'm able. Am I put out/off by this? Not a chance, she's taken what some would call a disadvantage and turned it to her advantage.

How do I know its genuine, not drug enhanced? Simple, routine drug checks through her work. She takes over the counter medication, she's to declare it. As does her husband and colleagues, fail and it's instant dismissal.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Exceptional sporting women are better than mediocre (no offence) men. Not unexpected. Flo-Jo Joyner could run faster than the majority of men. Her incredible World Record is still beaten by about 1,500 men and boys every year though. Because they had the advantage of the boost from male puberty that wasn't available to her.

 

[classic33]

Exceptional sporting women are better than mediocre (no offence) men. Not unexpected. Flo-Jo Joyner could run faster than the majority of men. Her incredible World Record is still beaten by about 1,500 men and boys every year though. Because they had the advantage of the boost from male puberty that wasn't available to her.

She doesn't consider herself "exceptional" though. She put up with comments about her height and build for years, before turning it to her advantage.

Even in work she's had to put up with comments about it. People seldom comment further when she asks them not to.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Perhaps she's doesn't think she is exceptional, but it's not unusual for talented women to be better at their sport than most men. But in men and women of equal sporting ability, with the same training regimen and support, men will do better in the sports that require explosive power, strength, and speed.

Anyway, the Equality and Human Rights Commission have now issued a statement saying Athletics UK are wrong and you can exclude on the basis of sex, and also on the basis of gender reassignment.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...sition-trans-people’s-participation-athletics

We've discussed the sports issue at length previously so I'm happy to leave it at that. Common sense is returning, sports are looking at the science and quite rightly saying that safety trumps fairness, and fairness trumps inclusivity.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I'll just say that is a strong opinion, and one not pleasant to read.

you're point is?

What I did say is that I raised my niece from the age of ten. She has turned out very well. She brought her friends to the house, I made them welcome. What a terrible person that makes me.

That's not the point, but it's indeed the typicall calimero response you give. I never said you are a terrible person or commeted sbout your nice, my point is that you drag that experience in every message that doesn't swing your way and they you use it to make the other party either feel or look bad, just like you do now. Do you really need that?

What I have learnt, is that you have very poor English reading & comprehension skills if you think that interpretation of the political situation is what I said. Have a nice live. Toodlepip.

I think you fully understand what i said and wrote, it's just doesn't fit your agenda. Thank god i'm not a person who de-transitioned i really feel for those people especially how the trans community seems to let them down. this is just an other example.

The problem being that the same accusation is thrown at every study.

The problem is that if it was as clear cut as you claim, the accusations at said study's wouldn't stand because there is evidence otherwise. like for example the fact that the earth is round, water is wet etc.
So in sort, you talking about pseudo science something that might exist but there is not peer-reviewed evidence as of yet.

 

[classic33]

Perhaps she's doesn't think she is exceptional, but it's not unusual for talented women to be better at their sport than most men. But in men and women of equal sporting ability, with the same training regimen and support, men will do better in the sports that require explosive power, strength, and speed.

Anyway, the Equality and Human Rights Commission have now issued a statement saying Athletics UK are wrong and you can exclude on the basis of sex, and also on the basis of gender reassignment.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...sition-trans-people’s-participation-athletics

We've discussed the sports issue at length previously so I'm happy to leave it at that. Common sense is returning, sports are looking at the science and quite rightly saying that safety trumps fairness, and fairness trumps inclusivity.

She's not an athlete, and I never said she was. I even said it was her work that would finish her, should she fail a drug test.

She endured more than a few years with comments, unfair ones, about her build, all natural. Before she put it to her advantage, work wise.

 

[monkers]

you're point is?

That's not the point, but it's indeed the typicall calimero response you give. I never said you are a terrible person or commeted sbout your nice, my point is that you drag that experience in every message that doesn't swing your way and they you use it to make the other party either feel or look bad, just like you do now. Do you really need that?



I think you fully understand what i said and wrote, it's just doesn't fit your agenda. Thank god i'm not a person who de-transitioned i really feel for those people especially how the trans community seems to let them down. this is just an other example.

The problem is that if it was as clear cut as you claim, the accusations at said study's wouldn't stand because there is evidence otherwise. like for example the fact that the earth is round, water is wet etc.
So in sort, you talking about pseudo science something that might exist but there is not peer-reviewed evidence as of yet.

You'll get over it one day. Have your tried Wordle? Or shouting at clouds? That's a good one.

 

[classic33]

you're point is?

That's not the point, but it's indeed the typicall calimero response you give. I never said you are a terrible person or commeted sbout your nice, my point is that you drag that experience in every message that doesn't swing your way and they you use it to make the other party either feel or look bad, just like you do now. Do you really need that?

I think you fully understand what i said and wrote, it's just doesn't fit your agenda. Thank god i'm not a person who de-transitioned i really feel for those people especially how the trans community seems to let them down. this is just an other example.

The problem is that if it was as clear cut as you claim, the accusations at said study's wouldn't stand because there is evidence otherwise. like for example the fact that the earth is round, water is wet etc.
So in sort, you talking about pseudo science something that might exist but there is not peer-reviewed evidence as of yet.

The Flat Earth Society would disagree with you on that part.

Water, being a liquid, isn't wet.
Scientific fact.

 

[classic33]

@monkers, @dutchguylivingintheuk thinks you have calimero, lovely legs!


Meaning of Calimero
Calimero is originally derived from the Greek Kallimeros, from Kalos meaning "Beautiful; Noble," and Meros meaning "Thigh; Leg". Turning out to be, "With Beautiful, Strong Legs".