Heathens moving ahead in England and Wales poll says....

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Don't Brits already have that freedom?!?

Yes, as far as I know, but, just because we have it now, doesn't mean it cannot be taken away in the future, if, for example, an even less tolerant. religion became dominant.
 
OP
OP
Fab Foodie

Fab Foodie

Guru
In what way have they "failed"? Do they publish targets? Have they failed you?

I'm certain they have some published targets and a strategy. But am fairly certain that managed decline, diminishing congregations and influence are not among them.....

As for my own personal relationship with the church, it has never failed me, in fact quite the opposite it has only ever been a positive in my life. I'm a supporter of 'church', just no longer a fan of the religious bit....
 

Rusty Nails

Upright Member
Interest in caller on the Jeremy Vine show today. (:blush: in my defence I had just got in the car and Radio 2 was already on).
A woman came on and described how finding her faith again during the pandemic had helped her, but emphasised that it was faith, which was spiritual, and not religion, which is a human construct.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Interest in caller on the Jeremy Vine show today. (:blush: in my defence I had just got in the car and Radio 2 was already on).
A woman came on and described how finding her faith again during the pandemic had helped her, but emphasised that it was faith, which was spiritual, and not religion, which is a human construct.

yeah, yeah, we believe you ;)
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
It begs the question, why or how has the CofE failed when other religions seem to be fairly good health?

Because, in my very humble opinion, its upper hierarchy is staffed with practicing unbelievers. In other parts of the world where this is not so much the case Anglicanism is doing well, e.g. in parts of Africa and amongst the poor of northern Mexico.
 

mudsticks

Legendary Member
Because, in my very humble opinion, its upper hierarchy is staffed with practicing unbelievers. In other parts of the world where this is not so much the case Anglicanism is doing well, e.g. in parts of Africa and amongst the poor of northern Mexico.

At the risk of sounding cynical isn't this in part to do with those churches being a kind of substitute to for social security, in those places.

No saying those churches shouldn't be helping, embodying the of true 'Christian' message of of caring for those less fortunate in a situation where governments are failing to make basic provision.

So membership of a church in circumstances of severe disadvantage, can bestow survival advantages.

Meanwhile elsewhere in other theocracies - Iran Afghanistan etc those at the top are enforcing their will through violence.

They too are clearly not practicing their faith 'genuinely' they've just got such a grip on power that challenging them becomes highly dangerous.

So I guess what I'm saying is that in neither case is it a genuinely free will 'faith' it's either coerced, or forced.

State and 'faith' should, imo be clearly delineated.

Although the right to practice any faith within the bounds of the law should also be upheld..
 

bobzmyunkle

Member
Because, in my very humble opinion, its upper hierarchy is staffed with practicing unbelievers.
At first sight that sounds like a strange 'very humble opinion', or are there facts to back it up? Is there a conspiracy social media site I can access? Sounds a bit like those who claim the pope isn't actually a Catholic.
 

Ian H

Über Member
I was told there are no ex-Catholics, only lapsed Catholics. You can check-out but you can never leave.

(I left)
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
Sounds a bit like those who claim the pope isn't actually a Catholic.
The current one does seem a big dodgy!

I had an Anglican vicar acquaintance who was in the Anglican ministry for 14 years as an unbeliever, and as far as he knew the only convert from the monastery he was trained at. He also reckoned he was the only believer in the deanary of 8 churches.

He is not only Anglican friend in ministry who has insider knowledge of the parlous state of Anglicanism, and its tendency in the West to cave in to the culture of the world around it. There are whole chapters on discerning false practice in churches, to be applied to Anglicans just as much as bogus American TV evangelists.
At the risk of sounding cynical isn't this in part to do with those churches being a kind of substitute to for social security, in those places.
That may be part of the reason. However if any one will not work, let him not eat. For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work so distribution to the needy is likely to be more conditional than when the state undertakes this.
o membership of a church in circumstances of severe disadvantage, can bestow survival advantages.
That is a very evolutionary way of looking at it! The opposite can also be the case. In Africa there is regular loss of life from Muslim insurgents. Make a confession of faith and you can be putting your life on the line. This coupled with poverty is why the 'global south' of the Anglican communion is no longer willing to go along with the compromise if not apostasy of bishops in the cosy West. Any more compromise on sexual ethics (its in the offing) and I predict you will find the Archbishop of Canterbury will cease to be the first amongst equals, and Anglicanism will split into a kind of federation.
Meanwhile elsewhere in other theocracies
The church is not a theocracy.
So I guess what I'm saying is that in neither case is it a genuinely free will 'faith' it's either coerced, or forced.
You cannot coerce someone to believe. You can compel an outward profession and adherence to religious rituals, and this has been done historically, but this is pointless if there are no inner convictions.
 

All uphill

Active Member
He is not only Anglican friend in ministry who has insider knowledge of the parlous state of Anglicanism, and its tendency in the West to cave in to the culture of the world around it. There are whole chapters on discerning false practice in churches, to be applied to Anglicans just as much as bogus American TV evangelists.
I am always interested in your thoughts @Unkraut , it's good to hear a considered view that is far from mine.

I just wanted to say, as an atheist, that if there was no false practice in churches there would be no practice! I don't imagine you would agree.:laugh:

To me religious disputes always sound like children arguing about which fairytale is true.

Having said that I have great respect for people who go out into the world and do good works without proselytising.
 
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