Heathens moving ahead in England and Wales poll says....

[All uphill]

Much of the comment in this thread looks on religion as a theory or an assertion which can either be substantiated by faith or negated by reason. Another dimension to the discussion is to regard religion as a product of the human mind. This raises questions such as: What is the benefit of religion to believers? How do believers use religion to influence their behaviour? Has the census revealed a change in the way we think? How does religion work as a mental tool? Is the toolbox changing? If religion is a metaphor, what element in our thinking is replacing gods or rendering them obsolete? In a sense, it is curious that in general we do not take ownership of religion as a human invention.

Like others here I have worked with people who were experiencing severe difficulties in their lives.

For some of those people joining a church gave their lives a structure, meaning and support; if the particular church was moderately benevolent the outcome seemed to be good for them, and I rejoiced in that.

I was aware that those people could just as easily have adopted any of the other, to me, irrational belief systems that are out there - fundamentalism, evangelism, extreme political views.

I get that many people find a life that has no externally imposed meaning is difficult, and I have struggled with that, too, but I much prefer that struggle to giving my brief life away to something I can't truly believe in.

 

[mudsticks]

There's a few things to unpack here, so I'll have a go in no particular order.

Christianity doesn't have the exclusive in any kind of moral system. Pretty much all societies have the same basic principles, to wit, don't kill, don't rob, basically, try not to be a shite to others, and all religions reflect that. The difference between religions is which neurotic behaviour they encourage, don't eat pork, don't eat meat on Fridays, don't cut your hair..., there's nothing that makes Christianity particular or special, all religious behaviour follows the same pattern.

There's also this Judeo-Christian values canard that's been floated from the US in the last 30 years or so, and seems to now be taking hold in here too. I am really mystified by it, and I can't be the only one. It seems to appropriate the values of the Illustration, as if they were somehow derived from some kind of religious practice, missing two important points:
1. The Illustration was a movement that developed as a secular moral system, in opposition to the Catholic Church social dominance, so the proponents would have been completely gobsmacked by the christian epithet
2. Antisemitism in Europe at the time of the Illustration was rampant, and any suggestion that there was anything Judaic about their thinking would have been even more hilarious

Finally, Jordan Peterson is a joke, if he agreed with me on anything I would check carefully to see how I arrived at that conclusion.

I don't see much to argue with in humanism.

https://humanists.uk/humanism/

Although I think there needs to be an even stronger emphasis on social and ecological justice in there too.

Even though I don't believe in such a separate entity as a 'soul' or in any kind of supernatural forces I like to uplift my sometimes feeble human spirit with various practices from across several spectrum of spiritual tradition..

Some might call that 'cherry picking' I prefer to call it discernment, or even 'what works for me'.
Sometimes a walk or ride in beautiful surroundings, or a good night out dancing or suchlike will effect the same end.

Live and let live, stop persecuting others for their beliefs, or lack of same, or ways of living, so long as they're not hurting anyone else.

Like others here I have worked with people who were experiencing severe difficulties in their lives.

For some of those people joining a church gave their lives a structure, meaning and support; if the particular church was moderately benevolent the outcome seemed to be good for them, and I rejoiced in that.

I was aware that those people could just as easily have adopted any of the other, to me, irrational belief systems that are out there - fundamentalism, evangelism, extreme political views.

I get that many people find a life that has no externally imposed meaning is difficult, and I have struggled with that, too, but I much prefer that struggle to giving my brief life away to something I can't truly believe in.

I'm sure many of us without faith struggle with 'the meaning of life' from time to time, but that's just being human imo..

But by all accounts many people of faith struggle with their faith too.

I think 'struggle' is just part of being human.

We can add 'meaning' and 'purpose' in so many ways though.
Working in community (that doesn't have to be spiritual) to effect good ends.
Or just as individuals or in relationships to make our world a tiny bit better too.

Personally I don't have or need an 'imaginary friend or score keeper' to incentivise me to do that .
I just like the way it gives me satisfaction in and of itself.
It's not bad to feel good about being 'helpful' after all.

The trick is not to get too attached to the outcomes of your efforts, just do what you can, then let it go..

Which might just be a little bit Zen possibly.. 🤔😇

 

[Deleted member 28]

I suppose having both a Dog & a God hedges your bets if you suffer from dislexia.

Or if you were Korean you could 'have your dog and eat it'.

 

[Ian H]

Or if you were Korean you could 'have your dog and eat it'.

I suppose the Christian communion could be characterized as having your God and eating it.
(I dunno why I misspelt dyslexia)

 

[Rusty Nails]

I get that many people find a life that has no externally imposed meaning is difficult, and I have struggled with that, too, but I much prefer that struggle to giving my brief life away to something I can't truly believe in.

Why are people who strongly believe in God(s) giving their lives away to anything. If they have faith in that and do not use that for evil then where is the problem?
We all have brief lives and it is how you live it that defines “giving it away”, so I cannot see how a religious person has given anything away.
I am not a believer in religion and find it difficult, no impossible, to have faith in anything that has supranatural power over the world/universe or the beings in them.
I read something recently by a woman who had found a strong faith, via starting again to go to church, following a time of great struggle which she said had subsequently made her happier and more positive, although she did not believe in organised religion, which is a man made construct and as fallible as anything else we do.
Whether that is like @mudsticks feelings about walking in the countryside/mountains or not does not really matter because it is all about an inner peace with one’s self.
That is why I will never criticise anyone’s faith in a god or make snide comments about belief in fairies or imaginary friends as if I am too smart or sophisticated for that sort of thing, as long as adherence to that religion does not come with intolerance of those of no or a different religion. That is where the problems of a man made construct start to arise.

 

[Ian H]

Or if you were Korean you could 'have your dog and eat it'.

I asked an old friend of mine what dog tasted like. 'A bit like horse' was the reply.

 

[mudsticks]

I always find it ironic when atheists call out say Catholic priests when they are guilty of abuse (this is not confined to Catholics). The priests are being hypocrites and are rightly criticised. Yet if you ask if such atheists subscribe to Judeo-Christian sex ethics they will, with a couple of possible exceptions, so no.

I think in more recent years there has been a gradual change from the New Atheist refutation of Christianity by shrill rhetoric and mockery. There are non-believing thinkers on the scene - Douglas Murray, Tom Holland, Jordan Peterson for example - who see western civilisation was built on the foundation of Christianity, including many of the freedoms we enjoy today. This is being ditched by the current generation at a rapid rate, following on from their parents and grandparents, and what is going to replace it?

If Christianity historically has been responsible for structure and stability, the increasing number of 'heathens' may come at a price, and not necessarily be a good thing ...

You talk about Judeo-Christian sexual ethics as if those belief systems have, or had the 'original' take on what is or isn't ok.

Have you read the Karma Sutra??
it has a far more detailed, sophisticated, and dare I say it humane, approach to sexuality. relationships, and a good life lived.
And was written something like 200 BC .

Not that we'd necessarily take everything found there, as a blueprint for relationship ethics either.

Given it was written in its, time by the priveleged and educated classes.

As humans we can also progress, and realise where what we once thought was an absolute isn't necessarily so.

It doesn't seem that hard to me to discern between right and wrong, good and bad if its looked at with best outcomes for human welfare, and basic humanity as the guiding principal.

Non consensual sexual activity eg priests abusing members of their congregation, or any other situation where the power imbalance is so skewed, well then obviously (!?) wrong.

(Truly) consensual and non coerced sexual activity between adults - no problem.

Infidelity - say breaking a promise of being monogamous - whether this is an implied or legal undertaking - dodgy 'moral' ground, as it's 'untruthfulness' and potentially exposing someone to an std, but it's not necessarily 'abusive' as the first example definitely is.

The idea of same sex attraction being some sort of aberation, or something that needs to be 'corrected' or demonised is also, we now realise, quite wrong.

Rather than it being a mental illness, or previous to that having been considered as being possessed by the devil or somesuch🙄

We now realise that some people are just born gay, and they're no more able to change that ( even in the event of their wanting to) than you or I can change the 'reality' of our own innate opposite sex attraction.

Basically no you can't 'pray away the gay'

Ps I don't know about the other two, but imo JP tries to trick people into believing that he's awfully 'clever' by telling people what they want to hear, but doing so using lots of obfuscated language, and derailing of what could be a productive conversation.

He often does this in order to be an apologist for the poor behaviour of some men.

Sadly a not insignificant number of men using his wordy ramblings as an excuse for 'boys will be boys' - or some other type of 'cant do better'

Or as CR says ..

"Finally, Jordan Peterson is a joke, if he agreed with me on anything I would check carefully to see how I arrived at that conclusion."

Why are people who strongly believe in God(s) giving their lives away to anything. If they have faith in that and do not use that for evil then where is the problem?
We all have brief lives and it is how you live it that defines “giving it away”, so I cannot see how a religious person has given anything away.
I am not a believer in religion and find it difficult, no impossible, to have faith in anything that has supranatural power over the world/universe or the beings in them.
I read something recently by a woman who had found a strong faith, via starting again to go to church, following a time of great struggle which she said had subsequently made her happier and more positive, although she did not believe in organised religion, which is a man made construct and as fallible as anything else we do.
Whether that is like @mudsticks feelings about walking in the countryside/mountains or not does not really matter because it is all about an inner peace with one’s self.
That is why I will never criticise anyone’s faith in a god or make snide comments about belief in fairies or imaginary friends as if I am too smart or sophisticated for that sort of thing, as long as adherence to that religion does not come with intolerance of those of no or a different religion. That is where the problems of a man made construct start to arise.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having 'imaginary friends' as such.

I've got a few 'cheerleaders' onboard .
And a couple of negging gremlins too 🙄

The difficulty arises where other people try to impose theirs or the 'rulz' of theirs onto us, against our will.

I asked an old friend of mine what dog tasted like. 'A bit like horse' was the reply.

And horse tastes a bit like beef, so that's that one cleared up..

 

[C R]

I asked an old friend of mine what dog tasted like. 'A bit like horse' was the reply.

OT, relevant to a couple of posts above.
I know someone who married a Korean lady. He is quite adventurous when it comes to food, so he wanted to try dog when living in Korea. Someone in his wife's extended family found someone in their ancestral village who sorted it out for him, despite popular perception in the west it is quite rare to eat dog in Korea, and generally frowned upon. He said it was OK, quite fibrous and lean, like rabbit, and not worth a second helping.

 

[BoldonLad]

I suppose having both a Dog & a God hedges your bets if you suffer from dislexia.

Dementia in this instance, rather than dyslexia

 

[Unkraut]

if Christianity cannot be demonstrated to be true, then the entire fabric of civilisation is predicated on a falsehood.

Do you find it ironic though that a religion that tells you not to bear false witness (OT) and not to lie to one another (NT) is based on a falsehood?

Christianity doesn't have the exclusive in any kind of moral system. Pretty much all societies have the same basic principles, to wit, don't kill, don't rob, basically, try not to be a shite to others, and all religions reflect that.

A common complaint against religion in general is that it sometimes does incite people to kill each other.

We would all be better off and happier if we stopped killing and robbing, so why don't we do it?

I don't see much to argue with in humanism.

I read your humanist link and was amused at the link Non-religious beliefs. How silly of these non-religious people to have faith, which by definition means believing something for which there is no evidence. Sorry.

Even though I don't believe in such a separate entity as a 'soul' or in any kind of supernatural forces I like to uplift my sometimes feeble human spirit with various practices from across several spectrum of spiritual tradition..

In the bible a 'soul' is simply a breathing body, a living being, not some indetectable non-material component.

I've noticed you talk about spiritual traditions before, and it intrigues me as if we live in an atheist universe and matter is all there is, surely there cannot be anything 'spiritual'?

Have you read the Karma Sutra??
it has a far more detailed, sophisticated, and dare I say it humane, approach to sexuality. relationships, and a good life lived.

By what standard? And no, I haven't read it!

The difficulty arises where other people try to impose theirs or the 'rulz' of theirs onto us, against our will.

Loads of people here have said similar to this, religion is OK provided you leave me alone. Aside from the fact religion is not alone in ever wanting to impose rules, doesn't this indicate that the flight from religion and Christianity in particular shown in the census might not be because it isn't true but because those in the 'heathen' camp want to maintain their autonomy? To echo Chesterton Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found too difficult and not tried.

Finally, Jordan Peterson is a joke,

I mentioned Peterson and the others because of a trend amongst unbelievers - atheists or agnostics - to start becoming bothered that Christianity is being ditched and what is going to replace it.

We now realise that some people are just born gay, and they're no more able to change that ...

Basically no you can't 'pray away the gay'

As far as I am aware, the nature versus nurture origin of being gay is debated amongst gays. If you mean being born gay is universal, I don't think you can take that as a given. It also has some rather startling implications.

The bible treats homosexuality as rebellion, predicated obviously on there being a God to rebel against.

With that in mind I have read testimonies of those who have left it behind for Christianity, though I have never actually met anyone. I do remember a pastor who was gay for years saying now married with a tribe of children that if he chose he could go back to that way of life, so for him it was a case of 'lead us not into temptation'.

 

[mudsticks]

Do you find it ironic though that a religion that tells you not to bear false witness (OT) and not to lie to one another (NT) is based on a falsehood?

A common complaint against religion in general is that it sometimes does incite people to kill each other.

We would all be better off and happier if we stopped killing and robbing, so why don't we do it?

I read your humanist link and was amused at the link Non-religious beliefs. How silly of these non-religious people to have faith, which by definition means believing something for which there is no evidence. Sorry.

Don't be sorry, you can believe what you like.
Just don't go around believing it gives you the right to hurt or persecute other people or to feel superior to them as a result .

I'm sure you do neither of those things

In the bible a 'soul' is simply a breathing body, a living being, not some indetectable non-material component.

I've noticed you talk about spiritual traditions before, and it intrigues me as if we live in an atheist universe and matter is all there is, surely there cannot be anything 'spiritual'?

By what standard? And no, I haven't read it!

You should give the KS a go, in the spirit of enquiry.

Spirit / spiritual / soul can mean slightly different things to different people.

"She gave a spirited defence to her argument"

Personally I don't have supernatural beliefs in things such as a separate 'spirit' although of course I can't be sure .

But certain 'spiritual' practices such as meditation and bodywork originating in spiritual traditions are very useful to me (and many others) - they work well whether or not you believe in the supernatural ..

Loads of people here have said similar to this, religion is OK provided you leave me alone. Aside from the fact religion is not alone in ever wanting to impose rules, doesn't this indicate that the flight from religion and Christianity in particular shown in the census might not be because it isn't true but because those in the 'heathen' camp want to maintain their autonomy? To echo Chesterton Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found too difficult and not tried.

'Too difficult' or just not compatible with the real world as it is.

Basic 'rules' of humanity such as not doing harm to others , and respecting property rights etc are pretty universally agreed upon,

Christianity doesn't have an exclusive moral code on these things.

I mentioned Peterson and the others because of a trend amongst unbelievers - atheists or agnostics - to start becoming bothered that Christianity is being ditched and what is going to replace it.

Peterson maybe doesn't like the fact that a move away from patriachal religions, might mean the more general grip of patriachy upon society is also loosened..

That would be a shame 🙄

We could replace it with a humane democracy that priotitises social justice on earth, caring for humans and promoting healthy ecosystem within which we could all thrive .

(Just a thought🤔)

The church has been as active in wealth accumulation for wealth's sake as much as any other corporation, they could do a lot more wrt that. Divest from oil for example.

As far as I am aware, the nature versus nurture origin of being gay is debated amongst gays. If you mean being born gay is universal, I don't think you can take that as a given. It also has some rather startling implications.

The bible treats homosexuality as rebellion, predicated obviously on there being a God to rebel against.

Given that being LGBTQ+ has historically led to extreme persecutions, yet has still existed across history and all geographies suggests very strongly that is not a 'lifestyle choice' it's just how some people are.

The implications of being gay certainly can be startling - given that in some cultures it can lead you to be killed.

With that in mind I have read testimonies of those who have left it behind for Christianity, though I have never actually met anyone. I do remember a pastor who was gay for years saying now married with a tribe of children that if he chose he could go back to that way of life, so for him it was a case of 'lead us not into temptation'.

Probs bisexual then 🙄

 

[bobzmyunkle]

As far as I am aware, the nature versus nurture origin of being gay is debated amongst gays.

It would be strange if it wasn't, would it not. But ultimately does it matter, unless there's a belief that if it turns out to be nurture we can 'correct' it?

With that in mind I have read testimonies of those who have left it behind for Christianity

Are you saying that's a good thing or merely relating a fact?