Israel / Palestine

[Pblakeney]

The BBC appears to have woken up to starvation in Gaza. Where's Bono clicking his fingers?

I had hoped someone had taped his fingers up. 😉

 

[monkers]

 

[Ian H]

Reporting from Jerusalem.
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/27/...flag-march-tensions-israel-nationalist-digvid

 

[Psamathe]

UK Government really doesn't seem to know what it thinks. One moment suspecding trade talks but next minute Trade Envoy visiting Israel

UK trade envoy’s visit to Israel one week after talks suspended sparks criticism
The coherence of the UK government’s policy towards Israel is under question after Labour permitted its trade envoy to boost commercial links one week after the foreign secretary suspended talks on a further trade deal.

Ian

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Dutch Guy


That really isn't an answer to the question. Let's try again.

In land / border / territory disputes, to which people(s) does land belong, the native people or invaders and settlers, or neither, or both?

When you known you don't have a good point, go back into the past just as far until your point sounds reasonable right?
The area's of land now called Gaza, West bank and Isreal have bee under so many occupiers in the past, have been part of many different dynasty's, kingdoms etc.etc. so the land belongs to the land i guess? Jews have just as much as a claim on it as modern day Palestinians, it nothing like Germany, Italy, France or England where it's easy to determine what the group is living there for the longest of time.

Modern day palestinia/Isreal has been occupied by asyrrians, jews, arabs, many other (small) tribes that may or may not exist anymore.

I'm guessing that you'll agree that Jewish attitudes are centred around the contents of their holy scriptures, which one might reasonably argue are more ancient than Islam.

There are also older artifacts then judism, but i get your frame, sorry doesn't work on me.

As long as both sides argue that the whole of Palestine belongs them by dint of scripture, then I guess the Jewish argument is the stronger in terms of age.

But is it the right question or the only question? What if the determination of who belongs to the land is framed some other way?

Well it's an question you steer, claim and try the slide into my shoes, i have not said that at all, so please shove it back into you own shoes thanks.

The current borders came after an un resolution after the then British Empire chose to split the land then still known as British territory. So any historical claims really don't matter to much, the split came after the decision by the then British empire, nothing else. And the UN which then lead to a war, which the isreali's won. After the jews/now isreali's where allowed to settle and buy homes under both ottoman empire and british empire but where attacked and killed at random by certain not goverment related groups, also called terror groups which in turn lead to Jews/isreal coming up with their own terror group which in part is still active today and part went up in the IDF.

Thank you for the reply. I was hoping to coax Dutch Guy into some fresh perspectives. It seems clear, at least to me, that there is no settlement that is easily arrived at to settle this. Both have entrenched views.

interesting leftie choice, and yes i say leftie because it's typical leftie to start talking about someone with a moral high ground undertone like you known everything and have the alone and absolute right on the thruth and nothing but the thruth.

But lets go on on that different perspectives thing, who would known better then you and me someone living in Gaza or better said people living in Gaza also called Gazan's sometimes OR me and you and all those ''free palestine'' shouters?

Some other perspectives on Gaza partly from poeple actually in gaza:

''A source at one of the Gaza distribution sites tells me that Hamas set up a roadblock to prevent Gazans from getting aid.

They broke through it and were shouting “thank you America” upon reaching the site.

View: https://x.com/KassyAkiva/status/1927423082504843351
''

or the twitter hashtag #TheGazaYouDontSee

or this person:
View: https://x.com/imshin/status/1925816272954012072
(who seems to support 7 october just not the outcome or live under Hamas. (he escaped Gaza recently according to the caption)

or this human rights activist actually from Gaza, actually a christian:


View: https://x.com/IhabHassane/status/1924519777164308990


amongst other things he also says this:

"were overwhelmingly ignored by major pro-Palestine voices, accounts, and media outlets that claim to support Palestinians. The bravest act of defiance—dismissed, simply because it didn’t fit their narrative. (...) You’d think the harshest backlash against anti-Hamas protesters in Gaza came from Palestinians loyal to Hamas—but it didn’t. It came from abroad: pro-Hamas voices in the West and keyboard warriors, thousands of miles away, sitting comfortably as they preach “resistance” while Palestinians bleed. Those who did this aren’t pro-Palestine—they’re pro-Hamas."

There are also lots of video's of Hamas executing, shooting people in the knee, torture etc. but i chose not to share those, resistance against Hamas is growing and so is their aggression.(and all theses people are counted as ''victims of Isreali aggression'' or ''matyr's''

This is too easily framed as a Jewish vs Islam dichotomy.

if you support Hamas yes indeed, but Gaza itself houses much more religions than just Islam. (just as Isreal that matter)

The further problem in terms of international considerations is that the land is recognized at the United Nations as being the State of Israel rather than Palestine. This alone is sufficient for settlers to believe the land has officially been turned over to them.

That was indeed what Yassar Arafat and Yizak Rabin (which i have undoubtedly butchered in spelling) where trying to achieve, Arafat was feared to be killed before he could make the deal, Rabin was actually killed. on both sides the more extreme or maybe even most extreme fractions came to power shortly after.

But i certainly agree that the start of a longer term solution is two states, and internationally recognized borders with sanctions for Isreal just expanding it's borders like most recently in Syria.

Gazan's themselfes dont see it that way either, see for example below Gazan's before forced to evacuate saying ''it's not the Jews, it's Hamas''


View: https://x.com/IhabHassane/status/1924602630581432566

No analogy is perfect, and any can be easily dismissed at some level; however the troubles and struggles on the island of Ireland should provide a model of resolution where the differences were just as political as religious. But that resolution took years, and the Palestinian people are running out of time.

The troubles where far far less complicated then this because, at least when Sin Fean made and peace deal it was honored they where in enough contact with all fractions that they had the power and authority to agree to a peace deal, Hamas and many other fractions is a different story. Apart from the fact that they really don't want peace.

Is it time for the member states of the United Nations to end the status of Israel as a recognised country and instead recognise that land as Palestine, before bringing the Israeli government back to the table?

Why make things so complicated while the better solution would be established borders and recognize both countries instead? Alltough under Hamas it wouldn't change an thing, and if it's any better under whoever takes Hama's place remain to be seen. Or in their own words 7 October was worth it'' (full translated source below)

View: https://x.com/IhabHassane/status/1924170779576386036

I admire your optimism. You may remember the contortions he got himself into six months ago when I asked him this question:
very nearly disappeared up his own ärse.

I don't remember all your questions mainly because you are very good in asking the same question 301 times if you don't like the answer, so i probably just got bored of you. Remember i'm not forced to answer you, it is very typical to assume a answer that favors you if you don't get an reply.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I don't remember all your questions mainly because you are very good in asking the same question 301 times if you don't like the answer, so i probably just got bored of you.

Oh, you know exactly the question I’m talking about, Dutchy. You’re not kidding anyone but yourself.

 

[monkers]

When you known you don't have a good point, go back into the past just as far until your point sounds reasonable right?
The area's of land now called Gaza, West bank and Isreal have bee under so many occupiers in the past, have been part of many different dynasty's, kingdoms etc.etc. so the land belongs to the land i guess? Jews have just as much as a claim on it as modern day Palestinians, it nothing like Germany, Italy, France or England where it's easy to determine what the group is living there for the longest of time.

Modern day palestinia/Isreal has been occupied by asyrrians, jews, arabs, many other (small) tribes that may or may not exist anymore.

You might have had a point if I had said when in my opinion there was some kind of starting or turning point was. But I didn't, I wondered where you thought it was. Instead of being to provide an answer you've waffled and pretended that I'm the one without a point. That would be fair save for the fact that I hadn't really stated one, but that doesn't mean I don't have one.

I wanted to explore the possibility of a conversation for myself, but as it turns out, it isn't possible because you decline to answer a basic question to begin one.

I notice that you seem to want to say that the Jews have a long history there, but also talk about modern Palestine. What I detect is a slippery mechanism of making the Jews look like ancient inhabitants and the Palestinians as being modern.

Actually the reverse is true. DNA testing of the 'modern' Palestinian people shows that they are descended from settlers from the Bronze age about 340bc. In contrast DNA testing of Jews finds they have no such ancient ancestral links.

The Jews are modern day settlers. I guess you knew this which would explain why you are being do disingenuous and slippery.

I don't accept the Jewish biblical babbling that the land is theirs and theirs alone, or that genocide is justifiable either being with or without some supposed permission from some unknown invisible super power.

Like the Jews the Palestinians are a Semitic people. The violence of the Jews is deeply anti-Semitic. It's convenient for them to forget that fact so readily but vilify people who criticize the state of Israel as being anti-Semitic, and falsely accuse them as ''Hamas lovers''.

The world united around the rights of the Jews following the atrocities of world war two. However the world has grown tired and impatient with the Jews. Already world leaders are calling for the state of Israel to cease being a country with legal recognition, and the land will formally again return to being a region we call Palestine.

The state of Israel has now lost the moral battle on the world stage and become a rogue state. You very much appear to be complicit with this by your defence of their violence and terror towards a population without a means to defend itself.

Israel has waited until such time that it could build sufficient military might to carry out genocide and resist military action from neighbours sympathetic to the Palestinian people.

I doubt that a peaceful solution can be found. However somehow world leaders need to tell Israel that it must stop or they will be stopped by any available means. At this moment in time, Israel will continue knowing that the threats against it are threats of sanctions and a pause in trade talks.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

You might have had a point if I had said when in my opinion there was some kind of starting or turning point was. But I didn't, I wondered where you thought it was. Instead of being to provide an answer you've waffled and pretended that I'm the one without a point. That would be fair save for the fact that I hadn't really stated one, but that doesn't mean I don't have one.

No this is just using a lotof words to say absolutely nothing, which happens to be your speciality it has nothing to do with my opinion you tried to drag me into somekind of ''oh yeah those jews historically think they own that shite, i did not claim that you did.'' and then you use a lot of words to try and make it sounds it's the other way around or reasonable. It isn't you still don't have an point.

I wanted to explore the possibility of a conversation for myself, but as it turns out, it isn't possible because you decline to answer a basic question to begin one.

No your looking for a certain outcome, you don't ask a question your looking for a certain answer. and disguise that as a question.

I notice that you seem to want to say that the Jews have a long history there, but also talk about modern Palestine. What I detect is a slippery mechanism of making the Jews look like ancient inhabitants and the Palestinians as being modern.

Fooking hell, i divided it into multiple paragraphs yet you read what you want to read because what you actually want to read is just enough to put me away as a ''jew lover'' or something. let me qoute myself and than challenge you to explain how it claims ''i make jews look like ancient inhabitants'' so what i actually said was:

''When you known you don't have a good point, go back into the past just as far until your point sounds reasonable right?
The area's of land now called Gaza, West bank and Isreal have bee under so many occupiers in the past, have been part of many different dynasty's, kingdoms etc.etc. so the land belongs to the land i guess? Jews have just as much as a claim on it as modern day Palestinians, it nothing like Germany, Italy, France or England where it's easy to determine what the group is living there for the longest of time.

Modern day palestinia/Isreal has been occupied by asyrrians, jews, arabs, many other (small) tribes that may or may not exist anymore.''

That does nowhere claim jews are the only ones with ancient roots there. it does not single them out either.

Actually the reverse is true. DNA testing of the 'modern' Palestinian people shows that they are descended from settlers from the Bronze age about 340bc. In contrast DNA testing of Jews finds they have no such ancient ancestral links.

How about palestinians jews, christians, Asyrrians, Druze etc. etc. but it's all a bit nonsense there is international agreement about the founding of the state of Isreal that's an fact you have to cope with, no matter how many rant you have about very selective ancient roots.

The Jews are modern day settlers. I guess you knew this which would explain why you are being do disingenuous and slippery.

oh a varriant on the toddler tantrum ''you dont like what i like so you are soo stupid'' or in other topics ''you don't think exactly how i should think you should think about trans people so you're an xenophobe'' in short everyone who doesn't agree with you is the devil, which ironically very much mirrors Adolf's mindset. (minus the extermination thing, but he only started that when he got enough power so i just hope we don't get people like you in power again.

I don't accept the Jewish biblical babbling that the land is theirs and theirs alone, or that genocide is justifiable either being with or without some supposed permission from some unknown invisible super power.

I get why Aurorasaab thinks you so fucing annoying, i mean you used the word ''disingenuous'' yet in your original reply and in this reply you're the one claiming jews have historic claims and trying to shove it in my shoes, if you're so keen on shoving things in shoes buy a size up yourself please and stop bothering me with your obsession, with wrongly claiming historic links.

Like the Jews the Palestinians are a Semitic people. The violence of the Jews is deeply anti-Semitic. It's convenient for them to forget that fact so readily but vilify people who criticize the state of Israel as being anti-Semitic, and falsely accuse them as ''Hamas lovers''.

Jews is a very wide group, you shouldn't generalize all of them, or is that only when we talk negatively about the Palestinians?
Personally i think both groups have indeed members who do this. But current war started AFTER Hamas started an attack killing raping and kidnapping Jews solely for the fact they where jews. (and yes there is lots of video evidence showing they where looking for jews)

The world united around the rights of the Jews following the atrocities of world war two. However the world has grown tired and impatient with the Jews. Already world leaders are calling for the state of Israel to cease being a country with legal recognition, and the land will formally again return to being a region we call Palestine.

a hollow statement considering you don't bring any proof to confirm it, so it's probably a lie or grossly overstated.

The state of Israel has now lost the moral battle on the world stage and become a rogue state. You very much appear to be complicit with this by your defence of their violence and terror towards a population without a means to defend itself.

What about Hamas and all the video i showed you from people actually living in Gaza, i will repeat a quote again that described this attitude perfectly from someone actually living in Gaza, that is an opinion i value more then yours.. were overwhelmingly ignored by major pro-Palestine voices, accounts, and media outlets that claim to support Palestinians. The bravest act of defiance—dismissed, simply because it didn’t fit their narrative. (...) You’d think the harshest backlash against anti-Hamas protesters in Gaza came from Palestinians loyal to Hamas—but it didn’t. It came from abroad: pro-Hamas voices in the West and keyboard warriors, thousands of miles away, sitting comfortably as they preach “resistance” while Palestinians bleed. Those who did this aren’t pro-Palestine—they’re pro-Hamas."

Israel has waited until such time that it could build sufficient military might to carry out genocide and resist military action from neighbours sympathetic to the Palestinian people.

Where do you get your lies from? Without strong army all isreali's would be killed/overran/extreminated.. If you look with actual eyes what Hamas is you will see they have benefitted the most from this war and have benefitted the most from the pervious situation under the watchfull eye of the UN.

Sorry you can simplify this into ''isreal stupid, palestinians great'' but if you can't take that away from my previous replies maybe it's simply above your level.

I doubt that a peaceful solution can be found. However somehow world leaders need to tell Israel that it must stop or they will be stopped by any available means. At this moment in time, Israel will continue knowing that the threats against it are threats of sanctions and a pause in trade talks.

With people like you no indeed it will not happen, but with a new regime in both Isreal and palestine and enough willpower it might at some point in some distant future.

 

[monkers]

Sorry you can simplify this into ''isreal stupid, palestinians great'' but if you can't take that away from my previous replies maybe it's simply above your level.

Goodness, and to think you accused me of using a lot of words. I've never written ''Israel stupid, palestinians great'', so yes you are being disingenuous again.

Your protection of Israel is clear to me. What is also clear to me is that murder of thousands of people due to some ideology is an unforgivable evil.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Goodness, and to think you accused me of using a lot of words. I've never written ''Israel stupid, palestinians great'', so yes you are being disingenuous again.

i never claimed you did, i think you have a problem with word comprehension your so busy trying to claim you smart and all you can't read the meaning of words, just the words. understanding context is also a bit to hard for you. To help you ouy a bit here i was writing how your words come across not that you actually said that.

Your protection of Israel is clear to me. What is also clear to me is that murder of thousands of people due to some ideology is an unforgivable evil.

Your protection of Hamas is even clearer i have criticised Isreal on many occasions i have yet to see one critical note on Hamas from you. I guess your not that much interested in womans or lbtq rights when they have not the right race right?

 

[monkers]

Your protection of Hamas is even clearer i have criticised Isreal on many occasions i have yet to see one critical note on Hamas from you. I guess your not that much interested in womans or lbtq rights when they have not the right race right?

I think you've lost your marbles. As you say I hadn't mentioned Hamas, yet from that you deduce that I am protecting them. You sound certifiable.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I think you've lost your marbles. As you say I hadn't mentioned Hamas, yet from that you deduce that I am protecting them. You sound certifiable.

a other wordsoup from you, there is an difference between ''As you say I hadn't mentioned Hamas'' and what i actually said which is ''i have yet to see one critical note on Hamas from you'' which does not say or imply that i would say you never mentioned Hamas, your quite happy to talk about them and glorifying their attack on Isreali/jewish women and lbtq and anything in between. Guess the gender topic can be closed by simply saying it doesn't matter as long at their jews right?

 

[monkers]

a other wordsoup from you, there is an difference between ''As you say I hadn't mentioned Hamas'' and what i actually said which is ''i have yet to see one critical note on Hamas from you'' which does not say or imply that i would say you never mentioned Hamas, your quite happy to talk about them and glorifying their attack on Isreali/jewish women and lbtq and anything in between. Guess the gender topic can be closed by simply saying it doesn't matter as long at their jews right?

You think your use of English is better than mine? Had you said Dutch I would have agreed with you an instant.

The only logical extension of ''I hadn't mentioned Hamas'' is that I can not have shown that I was protecting them as you complained. This is not a language problem, it is a critical thinking problem. The actions of a third group do not justify the action of the first on the second.

The slaughter is unforgiveable. For me the most astonishing part is that the Jews suffered the most and worst atrocities in WW2, that it is difficult to countenance that 80 years later they would be perpetrators of genocide.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

You think your use of English is better than mine? Had you said Dutch I would have agreed with you an instant.

doesn't really matter of your deliberately misquoting something to give an different explanation to it does it?

The only logical extension of ''I hadn't mentioned Hamas'' is that I can not have shown that I was protecting them as you complained. This is not a language problem, it is a critical thinking problem. The actions of a third group do not justify the action of the first on the second.

yes it makes you sound almost intelligent again, however if you look at the full quote ''Your protection of Hamas is even clearer i have criticised Isreal on many occasions i have yet to see one critical note on Hamas from you.''
You see you actually cherry picked parts of it to make it sound differently, fitting your narrative.

The slaughter is unforgiveable.

Good we can agree on something.

For me the most astonishing part is that the Jews suffered the most and worst atrocities in WW2, that it is difficult to countenance that 80 years later they would be perpetrators of genocide.

According to a Hamas spokesperson from the saferty of Qatar more Matyr's are born then died during isreals invasion, i think that is the real problem, the ruling terrorist organisation seeing the inhabitants not as human but as living shields or canon fodder. That's also what those living in Gaza say for the most part. Not that they think isreal is great just that Hamas is worse.

 

[Ian H]

doesn't really matter of your deliberately misquoting something to give an different explanation to it does it?

yes it makes you sound almost intelligent again, however if you look at the full quote ''Your protection of Hamas is even clearer i have criticised Isreal on many occasions i have yet to see one critical note on Hamas from you.''
You see you actually cherry picked parts of it to make it sound differently, fitting your narrative.


Good we can agree on something.

According to a Hamas spokesperson from the saferty of Qatar more Matyr's are born then died during isreals invasion, i think that is the real problem, the ruling terrorist organisation seeing the inhabitants not as human but as living shields or canon fodder. That's also what those living in Gaza say for the most part. Not that they think isreal is great just that Hamas is worse.

When did you conduct this survey of what the people of Gaza think? Did you speak to many of them?