Israel / Palestine

[PurplePenguin]

No, the Arabs lived in their land, the land wasn't empty, under Ottoman rule. The British and French supported Arab insurrection against the Ottomans as part of WWI. Those Arabs were a mix of muslim, christian and jewish already living there, I repeat, that was their land.

At the same time the British promised european and US jewish people the Arab lands of Palestine for a jewish homeland. The fact that people already lived there didn’t matter because those already there were brown people, who should make way for the higher calibre white people.

A lot of Jewish people in the surrounding areas also lost their land at the same time. That doesn't justify taking someone else's land in Palestine, but explains that it was a two way thing.

 

[C R]

A lot of Jewish people in the surrounding areas also lost their land at the same time. That doesn't justify taking someone else's land in Palestine, but explains that it was a two way thing.

Can you expand on that? The zionist project developed as a means for white jewish people to escape antisemitism in Europe and the US. In fact, for centuries the middle east had been safer for jewish people than Europe was. That explains why up to the creation of Israel there were large jewish minorities in north Africa, the middle east and the Arabian peninsula.

The creation of Israel and the actions of the european jewish colonists in Palestine generated resentment towards the jewish minorities, who were encouraged by Israel to move to Palestine, which increased the resentment towards them. There were even false flag attacks organised by Israel to make the resentment look worse. Ironically, the jewish people from those communities that move to Israel were victims of racism from the European zionists that convinced them to move to Israel.

 

[Pinno718]

At the same time the British promised european and US jewish people the Arab lands of Palestine for a jewish homeland. The fact that people already lived there didn’t matter because those already there were brown people, who should make way for the higher calibre white people.

That's one version. If the Israeli's had not had expansionist ideas from the outset and they had respected other people's land rights (religious or otherwise), I think Israel might have just fitted in. Jerusalem used to be a happy mix of many religions (up until Bibi's nihilism).
I think that as the Jewish people have had this idea that they have always been persecuted over millennia - by the Romans, by the Arabs for usuary, by the Nazi's, I definitely think that they have a persecution complex and that leads to fierce protectionism.
But it's spilt milk. The IF the British hadn't planted them there sentiment is all well and good but it's too late. They are there and this is the situation.

What surprises me is the lack of news about Iran bombing Israel with cluster bombs and is hammering Tel Aviv. A case of the chickens coming home to roost?
I know this sounds bad but I hope Iran continues to hammer Israel because so long as the Israeli's have a state sponsored expansionist/terrorist/hegemony agenda funded by the US, Israel will always be a de-stabilising force in the middle east. They are potentially being the architects of their own destruction. They are definitely re-enforcing the resentment towards them and they are cementing deep animosity and mis-trust for another generation. Their activities have so little long term efficacy in terms of peace.
What happens if the US turns against them? The far right is split between the Zionists and the Antisemites with even Nick Fuentes saying people have to vote democrat because of the influence of APAC on US politics and there is a growing body politic who are becoming increasingly antisemitic.
When Trump goes, the internal fight begins. If the economy hits a deep recession, Americans may not tolerate continued funding of Israeli expansionism and I also think there will be a massive swing towards a genuine America first agenda.

Just my two pence worth.

 

[Pblakeney]

Here is someone else's two pence worth. The US situation regarding Israel is about a bit more than two pence.


View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/C3gz9am0bRI

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Reality is that way.

Facts do matter, it's not an 1 side bad other side good kind of story.

No, the Arabs lived in their land, the land wasn't empty, under Ottoman rule. The British and French supported Arab insurrection against the Ottomans as part of WWI. Those Arabs were a mix of muslim, christian and jewish already living there, I repeat, that was their land.

At the same time the British promised european and US jewish people the Arab lands of Palestine for a jewish homeland. The fact that people already lived there didn’t matter because those already there were brown people, who should make way for the higher calibre white people.

You're leaving a part out, Jews when it was still the Ottoman rule already moved to what is now Isreal they bought land and stuff like that ad the goverment was fine with that. the local population wasn't and that where the first part of the current conflict started. Isreal was formed to solve a problem, that existed already might made it worse might made it better, but to pretend it was all peace and sunshine until normal people where thrown out of their houses and that was what became Isreal is simply wrong. Jews living in other Arab countries where forced to move too also something you often forget to mention when setting Palestinians away as the big victims.

A lot of Jewish people in the surrounding areas also lost their land at the same time. That doesn't justify taking someone else's land in Palestine, but explains that it was a two way thing.

Exactly

Can you expand on that? The zionist project developed as a means for white jewish people to escape antisemitism in Europe and the US. In fact, for centuries the middle east had been safer for jewish people than Europe was. That explains why up to the creation of Israel there were large jewish minorities in north Africa, the middle east and the Arabian peninsula.

The creation of Israel and the actions of the european jewish colonists in Palestine generated resentment towards the jewish minorities, who were encouraged by Israel to move to Palestine, which increased the resentment towards them. There were even false flag attacks organised by Israel to make the resentment look worse. Ironically, the jewish people from those communities that move to Israel were victims of racism from the European zionists that convinced them to move to Israel.

Not entirely true, Jews where not liked(or particularly disliked) in Arab countries but they where able to pay an extra tax just because they where jewish or a non-muslim minority (Jizya) and therefore they got some protection. It was a deal they bought into.
If and how succesfull those false flag operations where is very hard to tell, but they where forced to move due to the creation of Israel and surrounding countries not being on board with that idea.

That's one version. If the Israeli's had not had expansionist ideas from the outset and they had respected other people's land rights (religious or otherwise), I think Israel might have just fitted in. Jerusalem used to be a happy mix of many religions (up until Bibi's nihilism).
I think that as the Jewish people have had this idea that they have always been persecuted over millennia - by the Romans, by the Arabs for usuary, by the Nazi's, I definitely think that they have a persecution complex and that leads to fierce protectionism.

Yes i think that is an correct reading, alltough i think protectionism goes both ways, something like Hamas isn't never going to allow peacefull co-living. I say something like Hamas because it's not really them as much as the hatred it feeds, just like Israel has similar fractions as long as these are still there it's never going to be peacefull.

But it's spilt milk. The IF the British hadn't planted them there sentiment is all well and good but it's too late. They are there and this is the situation.

What surprises me is the lack of news about Iran bombing Israel with cluster bombs and is hammering Tel Aviv. A case of the chickens coming home to roost?
I know this sounds bad but I hope Iran continues to hammer Israel because so long as the Israeli's have a state sponsored expansionist/terrorist/hegemony agenda funded by the US, Israel will always be a de-stabilising force in the middle east.

Yeah lets encourage cluster bombs, great idea death baby's children, elderly etc. all great if it's Jews right?
Before 7 October it was realitively peacefull despite regular rocket attacks from Gaza so that kind if throws you're whole destabilising force thing out of the window.
Iran is the main de-stabiliser as regimes like that need an reason to be angry. need an enemy even if it's created.

They are potentially being the architects of their own destruction. They are definitely re-enforcing the resentment towards them and they are cementing deep animosity and mis-trust for another generation. Their activities have so little long term efficacy in terms of peace.
What happens if the US turns against them? The far right is split between the Zionists and the Antisemites with even Nick Fuentes saying people have to vote democrat because of the influence of APAC on US politics and there is a growing body politic who are becoming increasingly antisemitic.
When Trump goes, the internal fight begins. If the economy hits a deep recession, Americans may not tolerate continued funding of Israeli expansionism and I also think there will be a massive swing towards a genuine America first agenda.

Just my two pence worth.

I'm pretty sure Isreal's Nathanyahu's "Iran regime us go" agenda is based on that premise they don't expect much US support after this, but they won't need it either their biggest enemy is Iran. (that is if the objective of overthrowing the regime is met)
Isreal has survived many not so pro isreal minded us administrations, it more about what comes after Nathanyahu and /or hamas on the other side that's gonna cement future peace prospects.

 

[PurplePenguin]

Can you expand on that? The zionist project developed as a means for white jewish people to escape antisemitism in Europe and the US. In fact, for centuries the middle east had been safer for jewish people than Europe was. That explains why up to the creation of Israel there were large jewish minorities in north Africa, the middle east and the Arabian peninsula.

The creation of Israel and the actions of the european jewish colonists in Palestine generated resentment towards the jewish minorities, who were encouraged by Israel to move to Palestine, which increased the resentment towards them. There were even false flag attacks organised by Israel to make the resentment look worse. Ironically, the jewish people from those communities that move to Israel were victims of racism from the European zionists that convinced them to move to Israel.

A lot of Jewish people were expelled from neighbouring countries and lost their land and businesses as a result. Many Israelis believe this should be considered at the same time as Palestinian losses.

 

[C R]

Facts do matter, it's not an 1 side bad other side good kind of story.


You're leaving a part out, Jews when it was still the Ottoman rule already moved to what is now Isreal they bought land and stuff like that ad the goverment was fine with that. the local population wasn't and that where the first part of the current conflict started. Isreal was formed to solve a problem, that existed already might made it worse might made it better, but to pretend it was all peace and sunshine until normal people where thrown out of their houses and that was what became Isreal is simply wrong. Jews living in other Arab countries where forced to move too also something you often forget to mention when setting Palestinians away as the big victims.



Exactly


Not entirely true, Jews where not liked(or particularly disliked) in Arab countries but they where able to pay an extra tax just because they where jewish or a non-muslim minority (Jizya) and therefore they got some protection. It was a deal they bought into.
If and how succesfull those false flag operations where is very hard to tell, but they where forced to move due to the creation of Israel and surrounding countries not being on board with that idea.


Yes i think that is an correct reading, alltough i think protectionism goes both ways, something like Hamas isn't never going to allow peacefull co-living. I say something like Hamas because it's not really them as much as the hatred it feeds, just like Israel has similar fractions as long as these are still there it's never going to be peacefull.


Yeah lets encourage cluster bombs, great idea death baby's children, elderly etc. all great if it's Jews right?
Before 7 October it was realitively peacefull despite regular rocket attacks from Gaza so that kind if throws you're whole destabilising force thing out of the window.
Iran is the main de-stabiliser as regimes like that need an reason to be angry. need an enemy even if it's created.



I'm pretty sure Isreal's Nathanyahu's "Iran regime us go" agenda is based on that premise they don't expect much US support after this, but they won't need it either their biggest enemy is Iran. (that is if the objective of overthrowing the regime is met)
Isreal has survived many not so pro isreal minded us administrations, it more about what comes after Nathanyahu and /or hamas on the other side that's gonna cement future peace prospects.

The Ottomans allowed the immigration, like the British did afterwards. Both the Ottomans and the British were colonial powers, they allowed the immigration against the opposition of the local population.

That's one version. If the Israeli's had not had expansionist ideas from the outset and they had respected other people's land rights (religious or otherwise), I think Israel might have just fitted in. Jerusalem used to be a happy mix of many religions (up until Bibi's nihilism).
I think that as the Jewish people have had this idea that they have always been persecuted over millennia - by the Romans, by the Arabs for usuary, by the Nazi's, I definitely think that they have a persecution complex and that leads to fierce protectionism.
But it's spilt milk. The IF the British hadn't planted them there sentiment is all well and good but it's too late. They are there and this is the situation.

What surprises me is the lack of news about Iran bombing Israel with cluster bombs and is hammering Tel Aviv. A case of the chickens coming home to roost?
I know this sounds bad but I hope Iran continues to hammer Israel because so long as the Israeli's have a state sponsored expansionist/terrorist/hegemony agenda funded by the US, Israel will always be a de-stabilising force in the middle east. They are potentially being the architects of their own destruction. They are definitely re-enforcing the resentment towards them and they are cementing deep animosity and mis-trust for another generation. Their activities have so little long term efficacy in terms of peace.
What happens if the US turns against them? The far right is split between the Zionists and the Antisemites with even Nick Fuentes saying people have to vote democrat because of the influence of APAC on US politics and there is a growing body politic who are becoming increasingly antisemitic.
When Trump goes, the internal fight begins. If the economy hits a deep recession, Americans may not tolerate continued funding of Israeli expansionism and I also think there will be a massive swing towards a genuine America first agenda.

Just my two pence worth.

A lot of Jewish people were expelled from neighbouring countries and lost their land and businesses as a result. Many Israelis believe this should be considered at the same time as Palestinian losses.

Those are not alternative or complementary descriptions of the creation of Israel. Those are descriptions of the consequences of the creation of Israel.

It is a bit rich of Israel to claim equivalence when it was Israel that encouraged jewish people to move to Israel to backfill the land from which the Palestinians were expelled. Ironic too, because jewish people not of european descent were treated as second class citizens once they got to Israel.

It is true that there may have been a small window in the 70s and 80s for a negotiated solution, but looking at process, Israel never really negotiated in good faith.

How does this help solve the problem? Well it doesn't. I've already expressed my pessimism of how this ends. It ends badly. Israel can not survive without the backing of the US and Europe. Europe backs Israel due to a mix of guilt for historical antisemitism and racism in public opinion, but public opinion is changing, and decades of abuse of the Palestinians means that sympathy for Israel is dwindling. Continued support from the US is also in doubt, partly because of public opinion changes and increasing isolatonism. For the rest of the world Israel is an anachronistic European colonial outpost.

My prediction is that Israel will continue to lash out ever more wildly until a crunch point where the US no longer supplies them. What happens next I shudder to think.

 

[Pinno718]

The Ottomans allowed the immigration, like the British did afterwards. Both the Ottomans and the British were colonial powers, they allowed the immigration against the opposition of the local population.



Those are not alternative or complementary descriptions of the creation of Israel. Those are descriptions of the consequences of the creation of Israel.

It is a bit rich of Israel to claim equivalence when it was Israel that encouraged jewish people to move to Israel to backfill the land from which the Palestinians were expelled. Ironic too, because jewish people not of european descent were treated as second class citizens once they got to Israel.

It is true that there may have been a small window in the 70s and 80s for a negotiated solution, but looking at process, Israel never really negotiated in good faith.

How does this help solve the problem? Well it doesn't. I've already expressed my pessimism of how this ends. It ends badly. Israel can not survive without the backing of the US and Europe. Europe backs Israel due to a mix of guilt for historical antisemitism and racism in public opinion, but public opinion is changing, and decades of abuse of the Palestinians means that sympathy for Israel is dwindling. Continued support from the US is also in doubt, partly because of public opinion changes and increasing isolatonism. For the rest of the world Israel is an anachronistic European colonial outpost.

My prediction is that Israel will continue to lash out ever more wildly until a crunch point where the US no longer supplies them. What happens next I shudder to think.

Not a lot different from what I said.

 

[CXRAndy]

True


View: https://x.com/i/status/2039814871282512104

 

[Milzy]

No, the Arabs lived in their land, the land wasn't empty, under Ottoman rule. The British and French supported Arab insurrection against the Ottomans as part of WWI. Those Arabs were a mix of muslim, christian and jewish already living there, I repeat, that was their land.

At the same time the British promised european and US jewish people the Arab lands of Palestine for a jewish homeland. The fact that people already lived there didn’t matter because those already there were brown people, who should make way for the higher calibre white people.

Yes an absolute utter disgrace. The tin foil hatters go on about the ‘cabal’ but if there’s a ‘cabal’ it’s Israel & America. How they see Trump is going to expose everything and save the world is beyond me. They are talking about critical thinking but it’s clear to see Trump is the problem puppet of Zionism. The Middle East will always be the same old mess.

 

[Pinno718]

Yes an absolute utter disgrace. The tin foil hatters go on about the ‘cabal’ but if there’s a ‘cabal’ it’s Israel & America. How they see Trump is going to expose everything and save the world is beyond me. They are talking about critical thinking but it’s clear to see Trump is the problem puppet of Zionism. The Middle East will always be the same old mess.

The middle east is a mess partly because we keep interfering with it.
The British drew lines on a map and arbitrarily divided it all up at one point and there is the oil that every body wants and everybody wants control of.
And in that, there is the irony that the West is held to ransom by the Iranians as they control the strait of Hormuz, When we installed the Shah as opposed to a democratically elected government, we set the foundations for dictatorships, terrorism and resentment towards the West.

What irks me more than anything, is that the Usanians are seemingly totally blind to being one of the architects of historical events.
The fundamentalist Christians acting on behalf of Zionist ambition is an odd, unfathomable mix.

 

[Pblakeney]

The middle east is a mess partly because we keep interfering with it.
The British drew lines on a map and arbitrarily divided it all up at one point and there is the oil that every body wants and everybody wants control of.
And in that, there is the irony that the West is held to ransom by the Iranians as they control the strait of Hormuz, When we installed the Shah as opposed to a democratically elected government, we set the foundations for dictatorships, terrorism and resentment towards the West.

What irks me more than anything, is that the Usanians are seemingly totally blind to being one of the the architects of historical events.
The fundamentalist Christians acting on behalf of Zionist ambition is an odd, unfathomable mix.

Take a look at the main negotiators, Kushner and Witkoff.

 

[Pinno718]

Take a look at the main negotiators, Kushner and Witkoff.

Yeah - Trumps son in law Crypto currency manager and a Manhattan Real estate salesman who had a lot of Russian clients.
Have a watch of that Lincoln Project podcast I posted because Rick Wilson goes through a long list of individuals right the way up to the convicted of fraud (16m*) Steve Bannon (who Trump pardoned). His whole cabinet is made up of corrupt people.

*If Joe Smith went into a Post office and robbed it of a couple of grand...

 

[Pblakeney]

Yeah - Trumps son in law Crypto currency manager and a Manhattan Real estate salesman who had a lot of Russian clients.
Have a watch of that Lincoln Project podcast I posted because Rick Wilson goes through a long list of individuals right the way up to the convicted of fraud (16m*) Steve Bannon (who Trump pardoned). His whole cabinet is made up of corrupt people.

*If Joe Smith went into a Post office and robbed it of a couple of grand...

My point was not only that, but that both are Jewish.

 

[Pinno718]

My point was not only that, but that both are Jewish.

Yes. Indeed they are.