Martin Luther King and soup protests

[AuroraSaab]

I think it really does matter why they're doing it .

It's not 'the same'.
Low (and no) wage people are struggling to survive in this country and abroad .

The reasons for that are politically driven, deliberately caused injustice in our economic system, driven by many factors, greed and exploitation mainly

Not because of someone dropping gum wrappers..
I'm not condoning littering here, but saying that people shouldn't protest because of a sudden solidarity with low waged workers is spurious to say the least.

It's the lowest waged who are, and will be most affected by climate change.

Well we are finally getting to the point now. Does the end justify the means?

In the case of MLK, yes, definitely. Black Americans didn't have equal access to the ballot box and until they did they couldn't bring about an end to segregation etc. They had no alternative.

To suggest that chucking milk around Waitrose is even remotely comparable to the actions of black Americans in the 1960's is a crass appropriation of the black struggle for equality.

If you think the FPTP system is what's stopping green policies being enacted, campaign for PR. But noone wants to spend years building a campaign and a movement when you can do the one off big gesture.

While appropriating the black civil rights movement to castigate UK white kids chucking around milk and sh*t is daringly to extemporise, I suppose.

It was the OP who made the original comparison, and you've supported it.

If you're going to equate the one off antics of a sh*t throwing white middle class medical school drop out to the decades long campaigning of Rosa Parkes it's not surprising people find it ridiculous. In 10 years time the I-crapped-in-a-bucket-for-climate-change girl will have taken her A* star A level results and got a nice middle class job. Whereas Rosa Parkes would still be sitting at the back of the bus.

You should run your 'crap-in-a-bucket-girl = Rosa Parkes' theory past some black people. I'd love to know what they think.

 

[Ian H]

It's not 'appropriation' to suggest that King's words about protest have a more general application.

The climate crisis isn't a trivial matter.

 

[fozy tornip]

Well we are finally getting to the point now. Does the end justify the means?

In the case of MLK, yes, definitely. Black Americans didn't have equal access to the ballot box and until they did they couldn't bring about an end to segregation etc. They had no alternative.

To suggest that chucking milk around Waitrose is even remotely comparable to the actions of black Americans in the 1960's is a crass appropriation of the black struggle for equality.

If you think the FPTP system is what's stopping green policies being enacted, campaign for PR. But noone wants to spend years building a campaign and a movement when you can do the one off big gesture.



It was the OP who made the original comparison, and you've supported it.

If you're going to equate the one off antics of a sh*t throwing white middle class medical school drop out to the decades long campaigning of Rosa Parkes it's not surprising people find it ridiculous. In 10 years time the I-crapped-in-a-bucket-for-climate-change girl will have taken her A* star A level results and got a nice middle class job. Whereas Rosa Parkes would still be sitting at the back of the bus.

You should run your 'crap-in-a-bucket-girl = Rosa Parkes' theory past some black people. I'd love to know what they think.

Oh no I haven't.
Not my theory.
Comparing and equating not the same thing. We're both comparing. Who's equating?
You're on a hair trigger this morning; what's up? Not that there needs to be anything up, if memory serves.
Where will you take this if/when black people start protesting climate change? They are already of course, just less visibly in our media.

Mind, all this talk of milky poop is making me feel strangely... reproductive.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Not that there needs to be anything up, if memory serves.

What is that supposed to mean?

Also, I'd love to hear more about the nice tabards the minimum wage excrement removers get.

 

[mudsticks]

Oh no I haven't.
Not my theory.
Comparing and equating not the same thing. We're both comparing. Who's equating?
You're on a hair trigger this morning; what's up? Not that there needs to be anything up, if memory serves.
Where will you take this if/when black people start protesting climate change? They are already of course, just less visibly in our media.

Mind, all this talk of milky poop is making me feel strangely... reproductive.

I was priveleged to meet with quite a number of climate and environmental activists from the Global south last year.

There was never any suggestion from them that 'us priveleged 'white people shouldn't be supporting their struggles because of the colour of our skin (nor relating it to.our level of education neither)

And what struggles they are.
Resisting sisters being dissappeared, people killed in the fight to protect their lands from logging
and so on.

If anything they were glad of the fact that we as 'priveleged' white people - who aren't on the frontline of climate degradation - just yet - were recognising their struggles, trying to amplify* their voices over ours .

Our solidarity, and actions, and use of our privelege was appreciated .

*Of course western media will concentrate on people like Thunberg, because it suits their narrative of poking fun at 'these crazy eco nuts, who still at the same time, shock horror, live in priveleged western countries, yet still bother to try...

 

[Rusty Nails]

Well we are finally getting to the point now. Does the end justify the means?

In the case of MLK, yes, definitely. Black Americans didn't have equal access to the ballot box and until they did they couldn't bring about an end to segregation etc. They had no alternative.

To suggest that chucking milk around Waitrose is even remotely comparable to the actions of black Americans in the 1960's is a crass appropriation of the black struggle for equality.

If you think the FPTP system is what's stopping green policies being enacted, campaign for PR. But noone wants to spend years building a campaign and a movement when you can do the one off big gesture.



It was the OP who made the original comparison, and you've supported it.

If you're going to equate the one off antics of a sh*t throwing white middle class medical school drop out to the decades long campaigning of Rosa Parkes it's not surprising people find it ridiculous. In 10 years time the I-crapped-in-a-bucket-for-climate-change girl will have taken her A* star A level results and got a nice middle class job. Whereas Rosa Parkes would still be sitting at the back of the bus.

You should run your 'crap-in-a-bucket-girl = Rosa Parkes' theory past some black people. I'd love to know what they think.

While not unconcerned about this particular aspect, I am more unsure about whether the means will actually help bring about the end.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's not 'appropriation' to suggest that King's words about protest have a more general application.

The climate crisis isn't a trivial matter.

It's not, I agree. It's the OP's implication that he would have supported chucking soup at paintings that I take issue with. He wouldn't, simply because he would know that a poor person would be the one cleaning up afterwards. If you look at MLK's work, in a practical sense it was as much about alleviating poverty and hardship - it was about setting up food banks and advice centres, education classes, and so on. It was decades of advocacy and campaigning.

And even when it came to stuff like demonstrations and protests, he didn't advocate the destruction of property - because he knew it wouldn't bring about the results he wanted and it would only penalise black and poor people.

Climate change isn't a trivial matter, but it's not going to be changed by chucking soup around.

 

[matticus]

MLK wouldn't have approved of chucking paint over works of art because he would have known that it would be a poor or/and black person on minimum wage cleaning it up. Ditto pouring milk over the floor of Waitrose.

<snippage> ...
I think you are mistaken if you imagine Rosa Parks would have been pouring her own sh*t over a statue of Sir Tom.

Point of order: you will note the thread title clearly states "soup protests". You can bring your own sh*t to the discussion if you want, but don't expect me to step into it with you.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There was never any suggestion from them that 'us priveleged 'white people shouldn't be supporting their struggles because of the colour of our skin (nor relating it to.our level of education neither)

I'm not suggesting privileged white people shouldn't advocate for whatever cause they feel appropriate. Simply that in the UK it is possible to bring about change through the ballot box if you are prepared to put the work in - which means time spent knocking on doors, building support, advancing workable solutions.

Do your global south colleagues consider soup throwing to have advanced their cause?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Point of order: you will note the thread title clearly states "soup protests". You can bring your own sh*t to the discussion if you want, but don't expect me to step into it with you.

Lol. Fair enough. Will still be somebody on minimum wage cleaning it up.

 

[Ian H]

I'm not suggesting privileged white people shouldn't advocate for whatever cause they feel appropriate. Simply that in the UK it is possible to bring about change through the ballot box if you are prepared to put the work in - which means time spent knocking on doors, building support, advancing workable solutions.

Do your global south colleagues consider soup throwing to have advanced their cause?

Perhaps they should be making bombs and disrupting horse racing instead.

 

[fozy tornip]

What is that supposed to mean?

Also, I'd love to hear more about the nice tabards the minimum wage excrement removers get.

View attachment 2335

"Nice tabards" was part joke, part hook, Auroraquixote.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I wouldn't have condoned the Suffragettes using incendiary bombs. Nor the running under the King's horse. In fact the WSPU lost some support through using these tactics.

Women didn't have the vote though, whereas the soup/sh*t/paint throwers do.

"Nice tabards" was part joke, part hook, Auroraquixote.

There's nothing funnier than joking about minimum wage cleaners.

 

[mudsticks]

I'm not suggesting privileged white people shouldn't advocate for whatever cause they feel appropriate. Simply that in the UK it is possible to bring about change through the ballot box if you are prepared to put the work in - which means time spent knocking on doors, building support, advancing workable solutions.

Do your global south colleagues consider soup throwing to have advanced their cause?

We've been trying to bring about change, and proper attention to this issue, and viable solutions, via the ballot box , and all those other methods too, for literally decades .

And will continue to do so..
Much of that work goes unseen, and unreported, because it's all so unspectacular, and no one (with the exception of papers, such as the Guardian) finds it interesting enough to put up as a news item.

'Stunts' such as soup throwing, and people gluing themselves to things, do get in the papers though.

It raises awareness, starts conversations.


No one is suggesting that 'chucking soup about' will solve this in one go.
Just as no other single action will.

Like I said, I'm not sure I'd have done that myself either .

I haven't had chance to ask anyone further afield how they feel about all this.
But non violent actions leading to awareness raising is generally,considered to be a good thing.

Anyone who is put off caring about climate change by some soup or milk being spilt, is likely to never have cared much anyhow.

 

[fozy tornip]

What is the wage above which tabards become legit funny fodder? Mrs Overall asks.