Maureen Lipman: Cancel culture could wipe out comedy

[deptfordmarmoset]

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I think that's more prickle than prick.

 

[theclaud]

We seem to have lost the nuance that racism requires intent, whether passive or active and that without intent, there is no racism.

It really doesn't though, if by that you mean intent to offend, or some malicious purpose. This tendency to ascribe racism to the character of individuals is not helpful - racist imagery/language/ideas/assumptions are present and available in our culture. It is very easy to use or buy into them unthinkingly, or just by not thinking carefully enough, as well as by intending to hurt or to denigrate. It's well known that Baddiel did a blackface routine ages ago depicting Jason Lee. It was meant by Baddiel to be good-humoured mockery, but he recognises that it was crass and racist and has apologised for doing it (although not to Lee directly, by all accounts). It doesn't make Baddiel a bad person or make it necessary to write him off as a racist for ever, but it is important to recognise what's wrong with white people casually blacking up for laughs and to acknowledge that ordinary well-meaning people can be complicit in racism, however benign they imagine their intent.

 

[matticus]

however benign they imagine their intent.

Do you imagine that you'd know someone's intent better than they do?

 

[swansonj]

...

We seem to have lost the nuance that racism requires intent, whether passive or active and that without intent, there is no racism.

...

TheClaud has already picked up on this, but it's so important that I'm going to be boringly repetitive.

I am a white male living (and brought up) in middle-class UK. Therefore, I have absorbed whole swathes of assumptions, associations, prejudices, etc, many of which are racist or sexist. I think it's reasonably safe to say that I do not go about my life intending either racism or sexism, in fact I try moderately hard to eliminate both of them. But every day, in a hundred (hopefully mainly minor) ways, I react to situations in ways that contain racism or sexism. It is racism when I respond to a person from global majority heritage differently to a white anglo-saxon, whether I intended it or not, and their experience is largely independent of my intent.

 

[farfromtheland]

What worries me is that the mainly minor moments are picked up on while the bigger underlying currents are endemic.

 

[mudsticks]

TheClaud has already picked up on this, but it's so important that I'm going to be boringly repetitive.

I am a white male living (and brought up) in middle-class UK. Therefore, I have absorbed whole swathes of assumptions, associations, prejudices, etc, many of which are racist or sexist. I think it's reasonably safe to say that I do not go about my life intending either racism or sexism, in fact I try moderately hard to eliminate both of them. But every day, in a hundred (hopefully mainly minor) ways, I react to situations in ways that contain racism or sexism. It is racism when I respond to a person from global majority heritage differently to a white anglo-saxon, whether I intended it or not, and their experience is largely independent of my intent.

And third time lucky...

It's perfectly possible to be accidently unintentionally racist sexist transphobic etc etc.

But it is still those things, unintended, or not

Most of us carry around unconscious, unexamined biases that we've picked up from our passage through our life.

If these genuine oversights get picked up and pointed out we have a few choices .

Have a little think , realise our mistake and go "ooops yeah I see what you mean, I get it now"

"Could do better."


Run away, stick our fingers in our ears , and go "tra la la , I can't (won't) hear you.. "

Or go complete double-down thick and meaty full froth gammonfest.
"IT's all juSt pC gaWn mAd'

and angrily resist any possibility of adjustment or rethink..

The choice is ours..

Isn't it nice to have these choices..

 

[Deleted member 28]

And third time lucky...

It's perfectly possible to be accidently unintentionally racist sexist transphobic etc etc.

But it is still those things, unintended, or not

Most of us carry around unconscious, unexamined biases that we've picked up from our passage through our life.

If these genuine oversights get picked up and pointed out we have a few choices .

Have a little think , realise our mistake and go "ooops yeah I see what you mean, I get it now"

"Could do better."


Run away, stick our fingers in our ears , and go "tra la la , I can't (won't) hear you.. "

Or go complete double-down thick and meaty full froth gammonfest.
"IT's all juSt pC gaWn mAd'

and angrily resist any possibility of adjustment or rethink..

The choice is ours..

Isn't it nice to have these choices..

Why is there no 4th option in your list?

No frothing or Gammon type activity but the simple 'eyes to the sky, get a grip ' dismissive approach, that's what I do.

 

[mudsticks]

Why is there no 4th option in your list?

No frothing or Gammon type activity but the simple 'eyes to the sky, get a grip ' dismissive approach, that's what I do.

That's pretty much the second option isn't it.

Ignoring, refusing to listen, or even countenance the possibility of new learning.

I probs shouldn't waste pity on people who are like this, but it must be a pretty samey and dull way to experience the world, and the people in it..

 

[Deleted member 28]

That's pretty much the second option isn't it.

Ignoring, refusing to listen, or even countenance the possibility of new learning.

I probs shouldn't waste pity on people who are like this, but it must be a pretty samey and dull way to experience the world, and the people in it..

Not at all, not listening and putting fingers in ears is very different to listening, hearing, deciding it's ridiculous and then dismissing it as an opportunity to pull the racist card.

 

[matticus]

It's perfectly possible to be accidently unintentionally racist sexist transphobic etc etc.

But it is still those things, unintended, or not

Most of us carry around unconscious, unexamined biases that we've picked up from our passage through our life.

Agreed.

If these genuine oversights get picked up and pointed out we have a few choices .

Have a little think , realise our mistake and go "ooops yeah I see what you mean, I get it now"

"Could do better."

Run away, stick our fingers in our ears , and go "tra la la , I can't (won't) hear you.. "

Or go complete double-down thick and meaty full froth gammonfest. "IT's all juSt pC gaWn mAd'
and angrily resist any possibility of adjustment or rethink..

Nah. It's not that simple. There are other options. I'll give you the excuse of limited time to explain a complex situation. :-x
But I'd like to point out that when someone disagrees with your accusation of racism, it is possible they don't fully fit your "thick and meaty full froth gammon" stereotype.

 

[matticus]

I think Baddiel is basically a decent sort, and he has certainly been on the receiving end of antisemitic abuse, but he bought into a form of McCarthyism and allied himself with some seriously bad faith actors. He seems convinced that everything is about him, and has become extremely boring as a result. I'm not inclined to give his book a go on the basis of the rest of his recent output.

I think that's a bad reading of Baddiel's character. May I ask what this form of McCarthyism is? It's a term from ... well, before I was born, so I'm not sure how it relates to Baddiel's era.
Both the social doccos he's done have shown him highly able to consider multiple sides of an issue, including his own flaws. I suppose that could come across as all about me, in a way.

(no idea about the book - haven't read it!)

 

[farfromtheland]

Something I find difficult is adjusting to new norms that were not there in my childhood. I grew up in a mixed heritage family and neighbourhood. We did used to banter, we did used to call each other out and we did used to have fights. Very few of us were racist in intent but there was some patronising stuff happening.

When I am in a more let's say 'middle class lefty' environment though, I feel I'm treading on eggshells. I realise after the event that something I've said, in the spirit of my youth, that was not offensive but was not politically correct in these circles has put me in the wrong camp.

'White' people need to take on issues of racism. Can we do this from a background like mine? I'd like to think so, but I need to be able to speak from where I am coming from.

I have also said insensitive things, which i should have been pulled up on but wasn't, and I realised afterwards that was because I'd been written off as out of order. It is all difficult but needs to be done.

 

[mudsticks]

Agreed.

Nah. It's not that simple. There are other options. I'll give you the excuse of limited time to explain a complex situation. :-x
But I'd like to point out that when someone disagrees with your accusation of racism, it is possible they don't fully fit your "thick and meaty full froth gammon" stereotype.

Well of course I could have gone through many other options, where all sorts of possibilities were gone through .

But I was replying to Shep who has amply displayed how uninterested he is in these matters.

And furthermore, how little interest he has in the views of women, in general.

So why bother ??

You can, as say a white person, argue against an accusation of say racism, from a brown person.

You can do that, but it's generally a good idea I think to double, and even triple check on your privelege before you embark on that exercise.

Lest you come over, either as a total c0ck, d*CK or indeed outright pr*CK.

 

[farfromtheland]

Why bother? Isn't that something we just have to do?

I can't recall ever having been accused of racism, except as a Brexit voter.

There are times where I realised later I'd made some stupid remark, arguably racist in culture, that I was not pulled up on in 'white' company, that I wish I had been.

But if we are always double checking our privilege then genuine conversation is hard.

 

[matticus]

Well of course I could have gone through many other options, where all sorts of possibilities were gone through .

But I was replying to Shep who has amply displayed how uninterested he is in these matters.

And furthermore, how little interest he has in the views of women, in general.

No, you were replying to Swansonj: Shep's post(s) came later. If you keep dragging sexism into a (reasonably nuanced) debate about unintentional racism, this might be a struggle.

(does every thread have to be about kicking Shep? What would John Noakes say? :-( )