Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?

[AuroraSaab]

I was thinking more about women with masculine presentation being harassed for using the women's, actually, but where I'm going with this is less about the logistics of toilet provision than the vision of where we would like to be. Isn't the demand that sex has to be legible and gender coded in reliable ways essentially conservative?

I don't think the situation for gender non conforming women would be improved by giving males access though. At the moment the social contract means a gnc woman in the Ladies is almost certain to be female. If self id is made law, as Stonewall want, any (stereotypically) masculine looking person in the Ladies could be male or female. It would lead to more gnc women being challenged surely.

Gender criticism isn't a conservative position. If anything I find the position of trans activists to be regressive, sexist, and a bit homophobic. It seems to be based on stereotypes of how men and women should act and dress. If we could do away with gendered roles and stereotypes of dress and behaviour, as gender critical folk want, what would there be to transition to?

Most of those in the UK campaigning for women's single sex spaces are left wing women, lesbians, and gay men.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Where I would disagree with you is that the mitigation for that risk is exclude them all just to be sure. To do so is not practical, is almost certainly unlawful under Equalities legislation and probably contravenes ECHR rights too.

Somehow it has to be properly risk assessed on a basis which is both site and purpose specific (the toilets in a government office are a different kettle of fish to a refuge) and with legitimate and proportionate mitigations.

The risk assessment has been done for you already - it's in every collection of crime statistics since records began. Men commit the overwhelming majority of sex and violent crime. And women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex crimes.

What is it about saying the magic words 'I am a woman' that suddenly makes a transwoman less of a danger to women, statistically, than other men?

There's no evidence that transwomen suddenly stop having male crime patterns once they self id as female.

We routinely exclude whole groups from things every day on the basis of age, sex etc, without individual risk assessments.

It is perfectly practical to retain women's single sex spaces as they are now. It's worked well for years and is legal under the Equality Act.

 

[Bromptonaut]

The risk assessment has been done for you already - it's in every collection of crime statistics since records began. Men commit the overwhelming majority of sex and violent crime. And women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex crimes.

What is it about saying the magic words 'I am a woman' that suddenly makes a transwoman less of a danger to women, statistically, than other men?

There's no evidence that transwomen suddenly stop having male crime patterns once they self id as female.

We routinely exclude whole groups from things every day on the basis of age, sex etc, without individual risk assessments.

It is perfectly practical to retain women's single sex spaces as they are now. It's worked well for years and is legal under the Equality Act.

To be clear my point about risk assessment was to some extent forward looking; what happens if we move to self ID or something nearer to it than the current GRC?

I think you'd be in legal difficulties now trying to treat a fully transitioned transwoman with a GRC as though they were male and telling them they cannot use the ladies in the office.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Let's face it, someone on here has already said if he feels particularly 'feminine' when he wakes up he'll dress and act accordingly.

Now I'm sure he is absolutely no danger to anyone and wouldn't dream of making anybody feel at risk (he's told us so) but what if someone else feels the same as him and is a danger?
All this started with non-binary so nothing to do with transgender people, just people who feel they can be either depending on what mood they're in.

 

[AndyRM]

How you obtain your women's clothing is a fair question, and you did say you were happy to discuss how you live your life.

To take the sting out of it, let's say I wanted a dress for a fancy dress costume or to do the Great North Run.

The obvious thing to do would be to go to a shop selling (outsize) ladies' clothing.

How would I get on if I wanted to try something on before buying?

The other, presumably female, shoppers might not be too keen on a bloke shuffling in and out of the changing rooms.

I suppose I would just buy the garment without trying it on and hope for the best.

Well, I know my size for a start which is helpful.

You could go to TK Maxx or any number of other shops which have gendered fitting rooms so you could try your dress on in the comfort of the gents section.

 

[AuroraSaab]

To be clear my point about risk assessment was to some extent forward looking; what happens if we move to self ID or something nearer to it than the current GRC?

I think you'd be in legal difficulties now trying to treat a fully transitioned transwoman with a GRC as though they were male and telling them they cannot use the ladies in the office.

I do agree that there needs to be some accommodation for people who have genuine longstanding dysphoria. Third spaces solves it mostly. I think self id is a huge mistake, so the best solution is not to go down the route that allows self id to trump safeguarding - which it has in Ireland and the USA.

Stonewall estimate 500k trans people in the UK, yet only around 5k Gender Reassignment Certificates have been issued so the vast majority of trans people are seemingly not interested in getting one.

 

[FishFright]

I've noticed it. Perhaps you could give me your thoughts on why trans activists don't campaign for third spaces? Women fought long and hard for women's toilets and domestic violence refuges, raising their own funds and working for nothing. Likewise, the campaign for women's sports.

Why can't the trans community do the same? Instead you have women's refuges being defunded because they won't admit transwomen.

Why on earth would they want to do that ?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Stonewall estimate 500k trans people in the UK, yet only around 5k Gender Reassignment Certificates have been issued so the vast majority of trans people are seemingly not interested in getting one.

One reason is that the GRC process is exhausting and very heavily medico-legal.

 

[AndyRM]

Let's face it, someone on here has already said if he feels particularly 'feminine' when he wakes up he'll dress and act accordingly.

Now I'm sure he is absolutely no danger to anyone and wouldn't dream of making anybody feel at risk (he's told us so) but what if someone else feels the same as him and is a danger?
All this started with non-binary so nothing to do with transgender people, just people who feel they can be either depending on what mood they're in.

That really isn't how being non-binary works.

If I thought there was any point in trying to explain it further I would, but there clearly isn't.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why on earth would they want to do that ?

Do what? Campaign for their own spaces? Because then their needs can be met without impinging on women's need for privacy and without compromising women's and girls safety. Don't you think those things are important? Or do you think men having their identity validated trumps those concerns?

Edit: re reading your post now I'm not sure whether you are being sarcastic or not. I hope you are..

 

[Bromptonaut]

Do what? Campaign for their own spaces? Because then their needs can be met without impinging on women's need for privacy and without compromising women's and girls safety. Don't you think those things are important? Or do you think men having their identity validated trumps those concerns?

Edit: re reading your post now I'm not sure whether you are being sarcastic or not. I hope you are..

FWIW I thought FF was referring to defunding of refuges.

 

[Deleted member 28]

You know what? F*ck you, badly.

I do my best to respect the attitudes and feelings of everyone, but the way you present on this forum is just f*cked up.

And yeah, that's rude. I know it is. But I don't care.

You've literally insulted how I feel about myself.

So again, f*ck you, badly.

Why badly, why not 'good and proper'?

 

[Deleted member 28]

That really isn't how being non-binary works.

I thought I had grasped it quite well, you're a Man (even though you don't accept you are) but sometimes you feel like a Woman so you dress like one and act like one.
Sums it up well I thought?

 

[AndyRM]

Why badly, why not 'good and proper'?

Because you might be into that? A bad shag is worse than a hard one.

 

[AndyRM]

I thought I had grasped it quite well, you're a Man (even though you don't accept you are) but sometimes you feel like a Woman so you dress like one and act like one.
Sums it up well I thought?

I wear clothes.

Sometimes, and this may be hard for you to grasp, when I'm feeling feminine I'll wear trousers. And sometimes, when I'm feeling masculine, I'll wear a dress and might even put on make-up!

I don't "act" like anything.

I am who I am, and that person is non-binary.