Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[bobzmyunkle]

Thatcher was centre right.

Must be true, you've said it on here. Read the rest of my post and address what I said if you don't mind.

 

[icowden]

Must be true, you've said it on here. Read the rest of my post and address what I said if you don't mind.

Well, I can't really make sense of it. You seem to be suggesting that privatisation of the water companies equates to being massively right wing. I may be wrong, but I don't remember Hitler privatising the utilities and selling them off.

AI says that the principles of a right wing ideology include

• Values: Often emphasizes nationalism, tradition, and, in some cases, religious authority.
• Economics: Advocates for free markets, private property rights, and minimal regulation.
• Government Role:Generally prefers a smaller government role in daily life, focusing instead on national security and law and order
  Social Viewpoint: Tends to view inequality as a natural outcome of human society

So we had aspects of right wing ideology - free markets, minimal regulation, law and order, but without the nationalism.
At the same time we had core values from the left wing such as equality and justice, progressive values, public healthcare and strengthening the middle class, if not the working class.
You could argue that Thatcher was right wing, but it was a very specific kind of right wing.

• 1979–1997: Right-wing (Thatcherism).
• 1997–2010: Centre-left (New Labour).
• 2010–2016: Centre-right (Coalition)
• 2016-2022: Right-wing (Austerity and Brexit-focused).
• 2022-2024: Centre-right(ish) as Sunak tried to drag the party back from the brink.
• 2024–Present: Centre-left.

 

[Pross]

Well, I can't really make sense of it. You seem to be suggesting that privatisation of the water companies equates to being massively right wing. I may be wrong, but I don't remember Hitler privatising the utilities and selling them off.

AI says that the principles of a right wing ideology include

So we had aspects of right wing ideology - free markets, minimal regulation, law and order, but without the nationalism.
At the same time we had core values from the left wing such as equality and justice, progressive values, public healthcare and strengthening the middle class, if not the working class.
You could argue that Thatcher was right wing, but it was a very specific kind of right wing.

• 1979–1997: Right-wing (Thatcherism).
• 1997–2010: Centre-left (New Labour).
• 2010–2016: Centre-right (Coalition)
• 2016-2022: Right-wing (Austerity and Brexit-focused).
• 2022-2024: Centre-right(ish) as Sunak tried to drag the party back from the brink.
• 2024–Present: Centre-left.

I think that's a fair summary, not sure with Sunak as he was PM but didn't really seem to have control of what was by then a very splintered Party controlled by right-wingers. I think in a different time he (and May) could have been decent centre-right PMs.

 

[briantrumpet]

I think that's a fair summary, not sure with Sunak as he was PM but didn't really seem to have control of what was by then a very splintered Party controlled by right-wingers. I think in a different time he (and May) could have been decent centre-right PMs.

May was definitely broken by the impossibility of a good Brexit (especially over Northern Ireland): you could almost sense her unravelling in real time. Not so sure about Sunak, as he went straight into government-by-trolling when he became PM, and the retrospective realisation that his Eat-Out-To-Help-Out was a disaster (well retrospective for us, but they knew at the time) doesn't help his reputation.

 

[Stevo 666]

Do you really, genuinely believe that Reform will do a better job than Labour? I’m more than happy to admit that having voted Labour for the first time at the last election I’m disappointed with the performance to date. This is mainly down to their failure to follow their own path and constantly try to compete with Reform on their own territory which, as we’re seeing, even the Tories are failing with. However, I have no doubt that a Reform government would be a complete disaster both financially and for society.

We are already seeing how hard it is to get back on track once infrastructure and services break from lack of investment, whoever comes after Reform is going to have a near impossible task to fix the damage.

Quite possibly, although it is a low bar based on what we've seen in the last 18 months.

Actions aside, a party that embraces big state, high tax, high regulation, anti-business views and treats people like me as at best cash cows and at worst the enemy (depending on how far along the leftie spectrum they are) are not really top of my list.

 

[TailWindHome]

Quite possibly, although it is a low bar based on what we've seen in the last 18 months.

Actions aside, a party that embraces big state, high tax, high regulation, anti-business views and treats people like me as at best cash cows and at worst the enemy (depending on how far along the leftie spectrum they are) are not really top of my list.

What Starmer policies would you like to see a Reform/Tory government reverse on day one

2 child cap?
Employers NIC?

Anything else?

 

[C R]

What Starmer policies would you like to see a Reform/Tory government reverse on day one

2 child cap?
Employers NIC?

Anything else?

Ground rent cap for leaseholders?

 

[TailWindHome]

 

[briantrumpet]

Quite possibly, although it is a low bar based on what we've seen in the last 18 months.

Actions aside, a party that embraces big state, high tax, high regulation, anti-business views and treats people like me as at best cash cows and at worst the enemy (depending on how far along the leftie spectrum they are) are not really top of my list.

Yes, you're definitely a victim here.

Hang on, isn't that the Tory government of 2019 onwards you've just described?

 

[briantrumpet]

Anyway, thank goodness Reform can make a break with the failure of the Tories.

 

[Stevo 666]

Yes, you're definitely a victim here.

Hang on, isn't that the Tory government of 2019 onwards you've just described?

Not me. Just not in line what I think. There are plenty of other people who think they are victims, usually identified by their request for the state to give them more and make things 'fairer'.

 

[BoldonLad]

If we say that Blair was centre-left (though Corbynistas would claim he was true-Blue Tory), the last left-wing government was Wilson's, I suppose, as even Callaghan tried to take on the unions (and failed miserably).

Ahh yes, Harold Wilson, of pound in your pocket fame, and Sunny Jim, halcyon days they were. 😂

 

[briantrumpet]

Anyway, thank goodness Reform can make a break with the failure of the Tories.

View attachment 12656

Oops, sorry, duplicate, and too late to delete, @TailWindHome

 

[briantrumpet]

I guess the signs were there even when he was an 'academic'... and I'm sure that the 1st was a nice "FY".

 

[Beebo]