RIP Ann Widdecome

[Pross]

I think people have watched to many police series on TV and think the whole investigation, PM and forensics can be completed in two 2 hour episodes. Forensic services have taken a battering from austerity and given how high profile the case is no-one is going to make statements until they are certain.

 

[briantrumpet]

A PM has taken place but specific cause of death yet to be established (although a provisional cause of blunt force injury has now been established). A now departed family friend was a pathologist so I know it is not uncommon for pathologists to be cautious until an exact cause has been established. I suspect, as you suggest, there are complications due to the nature of how many times she was hit. It is possible she could have been hit and had a heart attack and died or some other cause related to the attack.

Yep, pathologists won't be rushed to publish results, as they would look really slipshod if they 'changed their mind' somewhere down the line as more analysis is considered and the exact reason for death isn't what might seem blindingly obvious.

It's not always clear cut, even if the end result (a very obviously deaded person) is the same.

 

[Pblakeney]

Not having any special medical knowledge it's hard to tell. But it's going to be something like the distinction between manslaughter and murder isn't it?

Exactly. So what charges can be raised while not knowing the cause of death?
Everything seems rushed yet delayed at the same time. Weird.

 

[Pross]

Exactly. So what charges can be raised while not knowing the cause of death?
Everything seems rushed yet delayed at the same time. Weird.

Charges can be changed or dropped but if someone has had their head battered there’s a reasonable chance it was murder even if something else was the actual cause of death.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Until it became clear that the death was the day before, not overnight, I assumed the delay in calling it a murder was because the injuries could have been the result of a fall. Obviously not when you consider the injuries, but hearing today's details I can understand the cause of death delay. They would want to check that nothing else contributed, eg heart attack, however unlikely that might be.

The ferocity of the crime suggests targetted rage, but having the wherewithall to look for and take her wallet suggests an attempt to make it look like a robbery which would undermine an insanity defence.

The trial date was given in some reports as June 2027. I hope he pleads guilty and it can be sooner to spare her family a long wait and the trauma of a trial.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

Exactly. So what charges can be raised while not knowing the cause of death?
Everything seems rushed yet delayed at the same time. Weird.

The Crown doesn't need to prove the exact cause of death for a murder charge. They need to prove the defendant's actions were a significant and operating factor in the death (legal cause) as well as establishing that but for those actions, the victim would not have died (factual cause).

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

FFS, sorry I spoke! 🤦‍♂️😆

 

[briantrumpet]

FFS, sorry I spoke! 🤦‍♂️😆

C'mon, you've learnt something! Rejoice!!

OK, so it was about murder and dead bodies, but...

 

[Rusty Nails]

C'mon, you've learnt something! Rejoice!!

OK, so it was about murder and dead bodies, but...

But, but....people (nothing to do with the case) on social media are desperate for all the facts...now!

 

[briantrumpet]

But, but....people (nothing to do with the case) on social media are desperate for all the facts...now!

I think that rolling news coverage is pernicious, in the way it makes people want to gawp and speculate when there's actually no benefit from knowing straight away. Widdecombe is dead, probably murdered, and there's likely to be a court case to test that. And somewhere along the line there will be a probable cause of death annouced.

Do we need to know anything else *now*?

 

[Pblakeney]

But, but....people (nothing to do with the case) on social media are desperate for all the facts...now!

FWIW, I'm not looking for all the facts. I just find the story baffling as it has been presented.
Possibly a failing on my part but everything just seems disjointed. Possibly a failure of the reporting.