Starmer's vision quest

[BoldonLad]

IIRC, @Dorset Boy does pensions professionally, so might know a bit more about it than Copilot. One to put in the AI fails thread, it seems. A single human knew more.

Perhaps we need a list of forum members professional expertise, to help assess the worth of their input?

 

[monkers]

IIRC, @Dorset Boy does pensions professionally, so might know a bit more about it than Copilot. One to put in the AI fails thread, it seems. A single human knew more.

Indeed. See above.

 

[briantrumpet]

@monkers - as I've mentioned, it's not that I don't think there's been terrible gender inequality in many aspects, but I still think this campaign does 'the cause' little good, as the inequality in state pensions historically worked against men, not women: shorter life expectancy and later pension age wasn't equitable. Even if the complaint that they weren't kept fully informed is a fair one, lots of people were obviously wanting to keep abreast of their pensions, and had the means to do so (and did). Obviously anyone who had been hoping to retire on a state pension at 60 having that taken away is going to feel greatly disappointed, but it was a very generous bit of inequality for a very long time, and unsustainable both morally and financially.

 

[monkers]

I just booted my works laptop and used Copilot Pro which produces a different - and very lengthy answer - the nub of which is that BR19 followed shortly changes in 1995. One table from its report.

Date/Period	Event/Milestone
1995	DWP issues personalized State Pension statements in response to requests (not yet in BR19 format).
April 2000	Over 13 million personalized State Pension statements issued by DWP—mechanism for request not always BR19.
2001–2004	Major reform campaigns; DWP disseminates more information, develops statement forecasting, and prepares for automation.
6 April 2004	Pensions Act 2004 receives Royal Assent, mandating improved disclosure of pension information.
1 November 2004	DWP establishes Disability and Carers Service agency; coincides with major operational changes including new forms infrastructure.
Late 2004–Early 2005	Indirect evidence (web snapshots, process change documentation) points to the introduction and active use of form BR19.
2004–2006	DWP issues 16 million Automatic Pension Forecasts to the public (unsolicited), while also responding to personal statement requests (BR19).
1 November 2012	BR19 officially published on GOV.UK as online PDF/downloadable service, with ongoing updates and versions

 

[briantrumpet]

Perhaps we need a list of forum members professional expertise, to help assess the worth of their input?

Oh no, it's much more fun letting people make fools of themselves.

I once gave a little anecdote (might have been on CC) about bovine artificial insemination, and someone questioned my observation about which orifice one puts one's hand up. Suffice it to say that, as I was qualified to do artificial insemination (otherwise know as 'AI' before the more modern meaning came along), I gave them a blow by blow account of how one artificially inseminates a cow. Served them right for questioning my knowledge. I suspect they didn't see that coming, any more than the cow did🤣

 

[BoldonLad]

Oh no, it's much more fun letting people make fools of themselves.

I once gave a little anecdote (might have been on CC) about bovine artificial insemination, and someone questioned my observation about which orifice one puts one's hand up. Suffice it to say that, as I was qualified to do artificial insemination (otherwise know as 'AI' before the more modern meaning came along), I gave them a blow by blow account of how one artificially inseminates a cow. Served them right for questioning my knowledge. I suspect they didn't see that coming, any more than the cow did🤣

I trust your qualification did not include collecting the sperm 😂

 

[briantrumpet]

I trust your qualification did not include collecting the sperm 😂

Quite correct. I'd have felt a prick doing that.

 

[briantrumpet]

Though I did browse the various company brochures to help select the most appropriate bulls for the herd I looked after. One of the companies was unblushingly called 'Semen World' and had a glossy (probably wipe-clean) brochure.

 

[Psamathe]

@monkers - as I've mentioned, it's not that I don't think there's been terrible gender inequality in many aspects, but I still think this campaign does 'the cause' little good, as the inequality in state pensions historically worked against men, not women: shorter life expectancy and later pension age wasn't equitable. Even if the complaint that they weren't kept fully informed is a fair one, lots of people were obviously wanting to keep abreast of their pensions, and had the means to do so (and did). Obviously anyone who had been hoping to retire on a state pension at 60 having that taken away is going to feel greatly disappointed, but it was a very generous bit of inequality for a very long time, and unsustainable both morally and financially.

Further to what you say ...
I was not informed of my pension age change (nor any of the other pension changes) so should I not be expecting compensation as well. Or is that I took the trouble checked for myself mean I wouldn't qualify for compensation.

Ian

 

[Psamathe]

Perhaps we need a list of forum members professional expertise, to help assess the worth of their input?

I'm uncertain on this as in general it's more complex. Experts can get things wrong is misjudge. Sometimes it can be better to look at comments as they stand.
eg somebody presents themselves as a qualified Dr (medical) yet I could give recent mad personal experiences of wasted high end NHS resources because of GP's failings (young inexperienced GP).

Sometimes you can see inexperience, eg a poster who gives all the signs of being rather young or lacking "worldly experience" through their postings so would post-nominals really change that?

My ideal (that I probably complete fail to meet) is along the lines of "My understanding/I've found/I was always taught/etc. ..." maybe with a link or source if people want to assess the reliability of what I suggested.

Ian

 

[Psamathe]

Authoritarianism, oppression, lack of Freedom of Speech in UK is beginning to get scary now

A protester who was threatened with arrest under the Terrorism Act for holding a Palestinian flag and having signs saying “Free Gaza” and “Israel is committing genocide” is taking legal action against the police force involved.

So police trying to shut down protect arguing unfounded accusations under the Terrorism laws!

Something going wrong in UK.

Ian

And it gets worse (or maybe more widespread (no Police involved)

Royal Albert Hall apologises to man refused entry over Palestine flag pin
... was stopped from entering the auditorium because he had a Palestine flag pin in the lapel of his blazer.
After the couple showed their tickets and had their bags searched in the foyer, two contractor staff spotted the lapel pin and said he would not be allowed into the concert because he was wearing it. One of them asked a colleague stationed at one of the entry doors to the auditorium not to let Cauthery in.

The couple were left standing in the foyer for 15 minutes before a supervisor arrived, overruled the earlier decision and said the couple could attend the concert after all.

Makes you wonder what is happening when showing support for Palestinian people by wearing a lapel pin badge causes you being blocked from attending a concert.

Report details the appologies, etc. but for me the deeper question is why this happened. What were the motives of those (trying) to bar them from attending the concert?

Ian

 

[monkers]

@monkers - as I've mentioned, it's not that I don't think there's been terrible gender inequality in many aspects, but I still think this campaign does 'the cause' little good, as the inequality in state pensions historically worked against men, not women: shorter life expectancy and later pension age wasn't equitable. Even if the complaint that they weren't kept fully informed is a fair one, lots of people were obviously wanting to keep abreast of their pensions, and had the means to do so (and did). Obviously anyone who had been hoping to retire on a state pension at 60 having that taken away is going to feel greatly disappointed, but it was a very generous bit of inequality for a very long time, and unsustainable both morally and financially.

We are simply exchanging subjective opinions here, so we first need to clarify what matters to us.

My own position is that, the WASPI women are not challenging the change in pension age. While most people did know from various sources that the age was changing, there wasn't a single transition point, it was phased. There is a requirement for formal notification, and this was missed. An adjudicator ruled in their favour. Starmer expressed support for the WASPI women when in opposition. The Labour 2024 manifesto didn't include a commitment to pay compensation. In December 2024 Labour announced they would not be paying compensation.

My opinion then is not favourable about Starmer or other politicians who say one thing when seeking election, but let people down at a later date when elected.

My earlier point was and remains that the government can not say there is no money available to pay pensions when we can see that the NICs account is in surplus.

 

[briantrumpet]

We are simply exchanging subjective opinions here, so we first need to clarify what matters to us.

My own position is that, the WASPI women are not challenging the change in pension age. While most people did know from various sources that the age was changing, there wasn't a single transition point, it was phased. There is a requirement for formal notification, and this was missed. An adjudicator ruled in their favour. Starmer expressed support for the WASPI women when in opposition. The Labour 2024 manifesto didn't include a commitment to pay compensation. In December 2024 Labour announced they would not be paying compensation.

My opinion then is not favourable about Starmer or other politicians who say one thing when seeking election, but let people down at a later date when elected.

My earlier point was and remains that the government can not say there is not money available to pay pensions when we can see that the NICs account is in surplus.

That's all fair enough, but I doubt if you'll persuade many people to change their minds, least of all a government (of whatever colour) in a dire financial bind. Given that, the entrenched views on both sides, and the vanishingly small likelihood of changing the government's mind, I'd maintain that vigorously focusing on this risks being counterproductive in fighting other gender inequalities.

 

[monkers]

That's all fair enough, but I doubt if you'll persuade many people to change their minds, least of all a government (of whatever colour) in a dire financial bind. Given that, the entrenched views on both sides, and the vanishingly small likelihood of changing the government's mind, I'd maintain that vigorously focusing on this risks being counterproductive in fighting other gender inequalities.

There's been no attempt by me to persuade anybody of any such thing. It all started with me agreeing a general point with another poster about pensioner poverty, and the fact that the money is in the NICs fund to pay pensioners. I pointed to political decisions. To remind ...

I agree with you about pensioner poverty. In my view the issue isn’t that NICs go to a separate fund—it’s that the fund isn’t used boldly or fairly enough. If the surplus were used to top up pensions automatically, pensioners wouldn’t be relying on means-tested charity to keep themselves afloat. I would also agree, thought you haven't said so, that having a separate fund has not helped the Waspi women. We can see from the accounts that the money is there to pay them compensation - it's just the political will that isn't.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Further to what you say ...
I was not informed of my pension age change (nor any of the other pension changes) so should I not be expecting compensation as well. Or is that I took the trouble checked for myself mean I wouldn't qualify for compensation.

Ian

Were the WASPI women informed in writing that they would get a state pension at 60?
If not, why expect to be informed in writing when the retirement age changes.