Starmer's vision quest

[Ian H]

And many of them aren't because suicidal ideation is part of their illness. People spend months planning suicide so by that logic there's no point trying to prevent the 20 suicides a day we have in the UK because we should accept that some were rational decisions.

Illogical response. Many is not all.

 

[briantrumpet]

What's this all got to do with Starmer specifically?

 

[First Aspect]

He was PM when it was voted on, and he's a bastard? Best hypothesis, not what I believe.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's about a wide range of issues, including mental health ones, of which anorexia is only one but one which has specific concerns because it is closely aligned with suicidal ideation.

For info, my late brother was profoundly disabled and I've just moved the length of the country to be closer to my still very much alive and vulnerable disabled brother in law. So fair warning - be very careful what else you level at me on this topic please.

Fair warning? Or what? That sounds a bit threatening.

Perhaps you imagine you are the only one with lived experience of the adjacent issues. You're not, so your opinion is no more valid than anybody else's. You'd think the disability rights groups and the hospices would agree with you but strangely they don't. They are against this bill in its current form.

Sounds like your brother in law has someone who can advocate for him, know what his very specific wishes would be in any given circumstances, and ensure that he gets the best treatment up to that point. Some disabled people don't have that and need to rely on the state to act in their best interests. You obviously have more confidence in that than I do.

 

[First Aspect]

Let's pivot to the other thread specifically dedicated to this.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So you can get aggressive and threatening on 2 threads? No thanks.

 

[briantrumpet]

Let's pivot to the other thread specifically dedicated to this.

That was rather my point with the

Maybe that was too subtle.

 

[CXRAndy]

You had one, you Muppet

 

[CXRAndy]

View: https://x.com/afneil/status/1922986903206347111?t=jcLCNpvkOtAPUvjJbqpiDw&s=19

 

[Pblakeney]

Perhaps you imagine you are the only one with lived experience of the adjacent issues. You're not, so your opinion is no more valid than anybody else's.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Because mental health issues can be recovered from, they aren't terminal illnesses.

Does not take away from the fact that if asisted dying becomes a law here or in the Netherlands where it already is an law, the choice to take the treatment to recover is on the patient. You seem to take the position where you claim a patient must take the path of recovery just because is medically possible. I agree that medical professionals should always prefer/prioritiize recommending treatment, but that is something else than saying ''no we believe you can be ''recovered'' so we refuse asisted dying''

I think it's reasonable to look at the experiences of other countries and see how 'mission creep' has led to unintended consequences with assisted dying. It accounts for 4.7% of deaths in Canada, 5.4% of deaths in the Netherlands.

any records on how to compare to suicide rates? Also where do you base your claim of unintended consequences on?

Yet every safeguard that would help ensure that in Kim Leadbetter's law has been voted down.

So your criticism on on the suggested uk law and their (lack of) safeguards?

Research from the Netherlands on GP's experience suggests it isn't as trouble free as you suggest.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7960528/

52% of GP's felt assisted dying was an emotional burden for them. 47% felt uncertain about the mental competence of those who chose it due to dementia to make a decision. 42% felt pressured by relatives.

I never claimed it was trouble free, and i can fully understand it's an emotional burden too, but so is telling someone in their 20's or30's they have an incurable deadly disease. If you have dementia you can't qualify for asisted dying you have to be mentally capable to consent. There is a other law which covers euthanising but that relies on a patient putting down their last wishes first it does indeed happen that relatives have an other definition off ''no longer mentaly there'' then medical professionals. but again part fof their job.

How can euthanising those with a mental illness ever be guaranteed to be a 'solid decision' by the patient? It's the mental illness that contributes to them thinking dying is the only solution.

You see there are medical professionals and they are trained in diagnosing whether or not the wish for asisted dying is caused by the mental health condition or because of the suffering cause by their mental health condition.

View attachment 8305

Don't know what the ide behind this screenshot is but her mother is campagning to make asisted dying for those with mental health conditions including het daughter more ''acceptable''. asshe spend years getting help and was evaluted by an pshychiatrist in the end who also agreed with her choice for asisted dying, despite how much he would have preferred treatment

There are so many aspects to this piece of UK legislation. There's coercive issues, disability rights issues. There's the way that assisted dying is a class and sex issue. The whole thing about how we as a society view disability and mental illness and the idea of 'a life worth living'.

Well in the uk that often leaves me confused to be honest, we have had an high profile case where a man paralyzed to his neck down was not allowed to die, despite the obvious suffering, but parent like those of Charlie Gard fighting with the hospital to give their child a chance of being kept alive.

But yes asisted dying is a very complex matter, and even if that law is passed it will take some toe before it is socialy accepted and onderstood.

We have to look beyond the bodily autonomy argument and the 'I don't want to die in pain like xxxx did ...' to the wider issues that affect others.

agreed

As noted by lots of people, it doesn't matter how much you pander to the xenophobes - they'll still want more.

Jup that why real leaders don't follow they make their own path.

If you stop eating and drinking then it becomes a physical illness which is inevitably terminal. That's what the eating disorder charities are worried about. It makes it an option for a mental health issue when we know suicidal ideation is part of anorexia.

The core issue is mental not physical, and medical professionals are trained to treat the whole spectrum including sucidal toughts

And many of them aren't because suicidal ideation is part of their illness. People spend months planning suicide so by that logic there's no point trying to prevent the 20 suicides a day we have in the UK because we should accept that some were rational decisions.

Most mental health inflicted/motivated suicides are caused by the fact it takes such a goddamn long time to actually get the help needed. and medication that GP's can subscribe that increase suicide risks.(but is used to calm people down on other fronts)

 

[Webbo2]

Dutch guy. Have you actual evidence to back up your last statement.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm not going to answer that all point by point other than to say the Dutch research I linked to suggests GP's in the Netherlands aren't that confident in the system, whether it's confidence in dementia patients genuinely making an informed decision or confidence that relatives weren't swaying the decision.

Assisted dying for mental health reasons has gone up in the last ten years from 2 in 2010 to 219 in 2024 in the Netherlands. Could that be because as you say "Most mental health inflicted/motivated suicides are caused by the fact it takes such a goddamn long time to actually get the help needed"?

 

[CXRAndy]

View: https://x.com/DominicFrisby/status/1922931274517299470?t=SDt4bbn7TzJ0kRxmu7ZQAA&s=19

😂

 

[Stevo 666]

View attachment 8313

You had one, you Muppet

It does sounds familiar to the one they were trashing just last year. I guess you have to give him credit for realising a deterrent to illegal immigration when he sees one.