Starmer's vision quest

[BoldonLad]

And you clearly think the water utilities were in great shape at the time of privatisation, and the seas and rivers were clean then?
We had crumbling water infrastructure at the time due to chronic under-investment by all governments over the previous 70+ years.
But ignore that fact if you must.
Nothing was going to improve if left under public ownership.

Agreed. All privatisation did was introduce a different set of pigs to the trough.

 

[briantrumpet]

Interetingly, this morning's YouGov questionnaire included questions about Russian sanctions. I wonder who commisioned that.

I think you've got a toast crumb under your S key.

 

[BoldonLad]

BT was also a mess. Very expensive, and waiting lists for everything, IIRC. And no innovation.

I have the misfortune to be old enough to remember BT, Gas, Electric, Railways in their pre-privatisation days. They may not be glowing examples now, but, nor were they in their previous form.

 

[BoldonLad]

I think we entirely agree with you on these points.

Can you now elucidate as to how giving £7bn to shareholders has really helped improve matters rather than, say, spending that money on fixing the infrastructure? Can you also cover the benefits of increasing customer bills to ensure that the CEOs of Australia's Maquarie were kept in the lifestyle to which they had become accustomed?

Can YOU explain how Public Ownership would have solved the infrastructructure problems, since decades of Public Ownership had failed to solve them? The CEO's may be piles of excrement, and depicted by PE, but, how can you be sure that Political Appointees would be any better?

 

[BoldonLad]

Maybe the flaw is capitalism itself, which will always exploit monopolies to the max.

Before Privatisation, BT was a monopoly (excepting a very small, and local company in Hull). A few posts back, you said:

BT was also a mess. Very expensive, and waiting lists for everything, IIRC. And no innovation.

So, how did Public Ownership resolve that, in the decades the monopoly existed?

 

[BoldonLad]

Given the shambles that is/was HS2 then I think it is safe to say, yes it would.
That's not to say private would be better than public, or vice versa. #Eeyore

Exactly

 

[briantrumpet]

Before Privatisation, BT was a monopoly (excepting a very small, and local company in Hull). A few posts back, you said:

So, how did Public Ownership resolve that, in the decades the monopoly existed?

DB is right in that the regulators *should* play a central part in making sure that markets foster effective competition, but we seem to have been plagued with toothless regulators, who seem to be scared of upsetting the companies they regulate. At least in telecoms, it's very hard to eliminate all competition, as with both cable and mobile networks, there's reasonable choice (when with BT there was none).

I used to work for a farmer who was as true blue as anyone, and I remember his holding forth that he really strongly believed in "the free market with controls". I hated to point out that it wasn't a 'free market' in that case, but I knew what he meant, and think he was probably right for many things.

That said, something like water can never be a free market in any meaningful sense (competition being impossible), and the privatisation was simply a way to try to offload the cost of previous under-inverstment to anyone else but the state.

 

[Psamathe]

Can YOU explain how Public Ownership would have solved the infrastructructure problems, since decades of Public Ownership had failed to solve them? The CEO's may be piles of excrement, and depicted by PE, but, how can you be sure that Political Appointees would be any better?

Way I see it is politicians would have acted as their motivation would be to get out votes in less than 5 years whereas private company CEOs motivation is to maximise return for investors.

But even if it was no better we'd not be passing billions to overseas investors and staggering massive director bonuses for failure.

 

[Ian H]

I think you've got a toast crumb under your S key.

My typing varies according to which kind I'm doing and on which of various keyboards or virtual keyboards. And which specs I'm wearing. And whether I'm rushing or not. And how much alcohol I might have had. And...

 

[Rusty Nails]

I have the misfortune to be old enough to remember BT, Gas, Electric, Railways in their pre-privatisation days. They may not be glowing examples now, but, nor were they in their previous form.

One of the difficulties of comparisons with the past for these industries is that they no longer resemble the organisations that existed under nationalisation. The electricity and gas industries consisted of 12 regional entities that had been virtually unchanged since nationalisation where each did virtually everything to do with electricity and gas in their regions while now the industries are subdivided into functions with no regional identity. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[briantrumpet]

One of the difficulties of comparisons with the past for these industries is that they no longer resemble the organisations that existed under nationalisation. The electricity and gas industries consisted of 12 regional entities that had been virtually unchanged since nationalisation where each did virtually everything to do with electricity and gas in their regions while now the industries are subdivided into functions with no regional identity. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

And circumstances change. As far as I recall, BR was a pretty dismal experience, but it was also competing with the ascendancy of the private motor car, which was the shiny new thing for government attention.

 

[briantrumpet]

And circumstances change. As far as I recall, BR was a pretty dismal experience, but it was also competing with the ascendancy of the private motor car, which was the shiny new thing for government attention.

Just for clarity, I'm talking about British Rail, not Bike Radar. Obvs. Though opinions might vary.

 

[icowden]

Can YOU explain how Public Ownership would have solved the infrastructructure problems, since decades of Public Ownership had failed to solve them? The CEO's may be piles of excrement, and depicted by PE, but, how can you be sure that Political Appointees would be any better?

No. It might not have done. I can say, with a degree of certainty, that £7bn wouldn't have been given to shareholders though and that cash might just have made a difference to the infrastructure.

 

[Pross]

No. It might not have done. I can say, with a degree of certainty, that £7bn wouldn't have been given to shareholders though and that cash might just have made a difference to the infrastructure.

This is the issue for me. Whether they are public or private is a bit moot, the problem is companies giving huge payouts to senior staff and shareholders without delivering the basic level of service that should be expected. No money should be getting paid out until targets are hit.

 

[Dorset Boy]

No. It might not have done. I can say, with a degree of certainty, that £7bn wouldn't have been given to shareholders though and that cash might just have made a difference to the infrastructure.

Equally there's more than a fair chance that £7 bn or more would have been wasted in public sector inefficiencies