What is a woman?

[AuroraSaab]

Doesn't it feel a little bit strange to be "fighting the patriarchy" side by side with people like Musk and Widecombe?

Some issues cross all political boundaries, like assisted dying, or turning kids into lifelong medical patients and putting male rapists in women's prisons. Musk isn't taking his stance in order to fight the patriarchy, but that doesn't mean he is necessarily wrong.

I suppose you'd think the earth was flat if Musk believed it was round.

If we're still doing the guilt by association thing, doesn't it feel a bit strange to be on the same side as Peter '9 year olds can consent to sex' Tatchell and that bollock eating rapist who wants you to punch Terfs?

I could list you some other people who are very vociferously pro men in women's spaces, but I don't think you'd like to be associated with them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Reductio ad absurdum.

Read detransitioners stories. The young women often say they felt awkward and a misfit in a society where girls are encouraged to be hyper feminised and hyper sexualised, especially if they were gay. Mermaids pushed this graphic in schools and training for years:

What do you think happens when you tell little boys who like dolls that they have a female gender identity? Or when you tell little girls who like GI Joe that they have a male one?

 

[spen666]

I wonder how John Lennon would have expressed his thoughts in the song "woman" if he were writing it today

 

[matticus]

Doesn't it feel a little bit strange to be "fighting the patriarchy" side by side with people like Musk and Widecombe?

Dunno, but it feels like classic NACA to suggest someone is wrong if Musk [or any other bogie man] is saying the same thing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If there is a movement that consists mostly of men, that benefits men almost exclusively, and which is almost exclusively detrimental to only women, then that is a patriarchal movement.

That is exactly what the trans rights movement does. It benefits mostly men, it harms mostly women. It couldn't exist without the patriarchy.

 

[monkers]

Transwomen are men. There are lots of men in political power in the world.

There are quite a few trans identifying male politicians, including Jamie Wallis in the UK. There are US Congress reps, Health Secretary, Belgium's deputy ptime minister, Taiwan's IT minister. There are plenty of trans identifying men who are successful in business.

They seem to do exceptionally well in women's sports. The fact that they are allowed in women's sports, prisons, refuges, all at the expense of women shows you that the patriarchy works pretty well for transwomen.



All of them, because they are men. The fact that a patriarchal system doesn't necessarily like trans identifying men doesn't mean they don't benefit from it's existence, and benefit from the fact that it likes women even less. Gay men also benefit from being part of the patriarchy.

I see you're only counting ones with a GRC. I guess 'You are who you say you are' is no more.

It took women centuries to be even recognised as human beings. It's taken men 5 minutes to be recognise as women. That's patriarchy.

Answers like these are exactly where I call you an idiot.

Prisoners have no political power, they can't even vote.

Jamie Wallis is no longer an MP. Wallis didn't get elected while presenting as female. I never saw them presenting as female once, it certainly never happened in the workplace. Wallis claimed to be a trans woman after returning home from a night out, having been drinking and involved in a car accident, and was convicted. Next election - out. We've never knowingly elected a trans person to parliament. One or two have been local councillors. One was an MEP but when Farage found out he, of course, made false allegations against her to get her out, one of his own MEPs. That's the patriarchy in action.

The trans people with GRCs are the topic of the thread from the OP.

All I see from you is ongoing sneering, and nastiness.

It did not take centuries for women to be recognised as human beings. It took too long before we were recognised with human rights, but then it took too long for anyone 'lower' than the aristocracy to have human rights.

Now that we have them, you've been recruited as part of the idiocracy to have them removed - Trump, Musk, Bannon, Farage and Putin for that matter - all of them keen to destroy democracy and human rights. You'll vote for anyone who says 'down with trans women'.

In the news, just to prove the point I've been pressing for a few years, Musk is talking about getting British citizenship, and giving Farage $100 million. They are convinced they can buy the election here to make Farage Prime Minister.

And they'll likely succeed because of morons voting for culture wars.

 

[cookiemonster]

What's the betting that this will decend into another 1000+ page, insult laden gender thread by Xmas?

 

["slow horse" aka "another sam"]

What's the betting that this will decend into another 1000+ page, insult laden gender thread by Xmas.

Maybe an idea to start keeping an insult spreadsheet, taking note of who descends to it most often. First must define what constitutes insult, but I think most of us know one when we see it. Calling someone an idiot is a fairly obvious example; finding an elegant way to show them they're being one should receive a less severe weighting.

 

[monkers]

What's the betting that this will decend into another 1000+ page, insult laden gender thread by Xmas.

It's inevitable, when the same person gish-gallops the thread with rants and lies.

It is mad to conceive that the restrictions placed on the placement of trans women prisoners in the female estate is given as an example of trans women receiving favourable treatment in the hands of the patriarchy It's too ridiculous for words. ''Idiot'' is all that's left.

Any person with half a brain reading those regulations and coming to that conclusion requires sectioning under the mental health act.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ent_of_Individuals_who_are_Transgender_PF.pdf

 

[monkers]

Maybe an idea to start keeping an insult spreadsheet, taking note of who descends to it most often. First must define what constitutes insult, but I think most of us know one when we see it. Calling someone an idiot is a fairly obvious example; finding an elegant way to show them they're being one should receive a less severe weighting.

Moron.

 

[monkers]

A solicitor speaks about the problems of false authority and gish-galloping ...

I have always had opinions about Cass. I kept quiet about them because I’m not a doctor and I work to stay in my lane. As is so often the case, the “Cass Report” isn’t what’s claimed by anti trans activists either.

But the basic fact is that Cass is an expert doctor in an unrelated field and does not have deep expertise in the area of trans healthcare. She deliberately excluded those who did have experience. Those were choices and she doesn’t get to be retroactively framed as an authority to appeal to.

• Spotting the lies in a Gish Gallop is hard. • Understanding why the lies have impact takes knowledge. • Pointing them out is slow and painstaking. • That’s why fascists, hate groups and bigots use this tactic: it fools the unwary and delays responses from the knowledgeable.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Prisoners have no political power, they can't even vote.

If trans identifying male prisoners have the power to get themselves placed in women's prisons purely on their self identity - which they do in several countries - then they have a lot of power. They certainly have more power than the women prisoners who don't want them there and who are punished for saying so.

If trans identifying males can be in Women's sports, even when they object, they have power. If trans identifying males can take prizes, awards, scholarships away from women, if men can be Woman of the Year, they have power.

In fact, for a supposedly tiny oppressed minority they seem to have a quite a lot of power.

It did not take centuries for women to be recognised as human beings.

They took centuries to give them anywhere near the rights that men had. Millions of women don't have those rights today.

It took too long before we were recognised with human rights, but then it took too long for anyone 'lower' than the aristocracy to have human rights.

Aristocratic women had fewer rights than aristocratic men. Poor women had fewer rights than poor men. It's nonsense to suggest there has ever been a culture or country where women haven't consistently been at the bottom of the pile.

Now that we have them, you've been recruited as part of the idiocracy to have them removed - Trump, Musk, Bannon, Farage and Putin for that matter - all of them keen to destroy democracy and human rights. You'll vote for anyone who says 'down with trans women'.

This tiresome trope doesn't wash. It's the pathetic cry of the abusive boyfriend, who imagines he can use the threat of the next boyfriend being worse in order to shut women up.

 

[monkers]

If trans identifying male prisoners have the power to get themselves placed in women's prisons purely on their self identity - which they do in several countries - then they have a lot of power. They certainly have more power than the women prisoners who don't want them there and who are punished for saying so.

If trans identifying males can be in Women's sports, even when they object, they have power. If trans identifying males can take prizes, awards, scholarships away from women, if men can be Woman of the Year, they have power.

In fact, for a supposedly tiny oppressed minority they seem to have a quite a lot of power.



They took centuries to give them anywhere near the rights that men had. Millions of women don't have those rights today.



Aristocratic women had fewer rights than aristocratic men. Poor women had fewer rights than poor men. It's nonsense to suggest there has ever been a culture or country where women haven't consistently been at the bottom of the pile.


This tiresome trope doesn't wash. It's the pathetic cry of the abusive boyfriend, who imagines he can use the threat of the next boyfriend being worse in order to shut women up.

Keep posting.

That way I don't have to prove you're an idiot.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Great. Will do. People can read the posts for themselves and judge. Probably more convincing if you post in a civil manner but I'm sure some folk find extinction bursts persuasive.

 

[monkers]

Great. Will do. People can read the posts for themselves and judge. Probably more convincing if you post in a civil manner but I'm sure some folk find extinction bursts persuasive.

The very idea that you are civil is laughable. Keep posting. You've another 820 pages to fill yet. I'm sure you don't need help from others.

'Patriarchy', 'male privilege', 'trans privilege', ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Any people happening to black might mention 'white privilege'. How inconvenient that might be. Whoops, extra 500 pages required.