What is a woman?

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I am eager to assist your claim. I had always believed that Christ was on a Trek.

Firstly can you please confirm or deny if it was fitted with rim brakes? Was he wearing a hi vis clothing and a helmet? Camera footage, if available or a witness statement would greatly assist you claim.

PS ... please ask him which lube he recommends.

Think i saw him on a Gazelle with suspension saddle upright position all that good stuff, but i could be wrong, you can ask him but he charges quite the premium. (link https://www.cameo.com/thejesuschris...-gMDkjk3JRCDArfHoq5vpKfmXxRMqOh64laemj3hqWctK no i'm not getting payed for it jesus doesn't share)
Maybe his Video's sell so well where all correct and he has Cross, Gazelle, Trek and Cannondale

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm not the one that raised medical conditions.

That was CR. A medical condition does not make you a different sex.

Sex is binary for reproduction, but not for internal or external genitals, secondary sex characteristics, gametes or chromosomes; hormone ratios vary.

People with different looking genitalia are not a different or 3rd sex. Neither are people with low or high hormones. We all know sex is binary - M and F only - because those are the only 2 reproductive pathways that mammalian evolution has produced. If you know of the 3rd please share it with us. What sex are those with undescended testes? What sex are those who don't menstruate due to Turner's dsd?

You are presenting a false dichotomy.
Tell me is it penis envy or penis panic you suffer from?

Neither. I'm not one of those poor unfortunates who coverts what I can never have, desperately pretending I'm part of a club to which I can never belong. It must be exhausting going through life like that.

Yep. And they're just as valid as people who fit neatly into gender binaries. Dismissing them as simply "male" or "female" is, IMO, wrong.

Telling them they aren't male or female is absolutely beyond insulting. Some dsd's are very benign, others less so. It would be really obnoxious to tell someone who was infertile but otherwise unaffected that they aren't really a woman.

 

[monkers]

People with different looking genitalia are not a different or 3rd sex. Neither are people with low or high hormones. We all know sex is binary - M and F only - because those are the only 2 reproductive pathways that mammalian evolution has produced. If you know of the 3rd please share it with us. What sex are those with undescended testes? What sex are those who don't menstruate due to Turner's dsd?

Nobody is arguing that they are. It's something you've made up. Neither is anybody saying that taking hormones makes you a third sex or the biological sex of a natal person with the most usual hormone cocktail. Nobody is saying that, but to hear you, you'd think that everybody is saying that.

There are ''2 reproductive pathways''. Indeed. reproductive sex is binary. None of us spend all our time reproducing. In fact I've spent more than 67 years determined to avoid it. Does that mean I don't have a reproductive sex, or does it mean that I've been negligent in not helping to over populate the planet?

What reproductive sex other people are shouldn't really matter to you. Genitals are a private matter and shouldn't really matter to you.

On the one hand you consider flashers to be monsters, on the other you want the right to check out other people's genitals before letting them piss in private. I think we know who the monster really is.

There you go using people with dsds as some kind of excuse to demonise anything that is natally male. You just have a problem with all men.

So it is penis panic. I thought I was deliberately using a false dichotomy. Silly me.

 

[monkers]

Telling them they aren't male or female is absolutely beyond insulting. Some dsd's are very benign, others less so. It would be really obnoxious to tell someone who was infertile but otherwise unaffected that they aren't really a woman.

You are the one doing the insulting. You've argued that chromosomes of xx and xy are the very thing that make people male or female.

Then presented with the cases of dsds you tell us that they are also just male or female. You talk in absolute riddles trying to justify what can only be realised as bigotry. And you talk about the mental gymnastics of others!

Even people born with a vagina and raised as girls you assert are men. There's quite a few women born with dsds who don't even know they have one. They only find out when investigated for infertility or want to compete in high level sport. Do you want these women banned from public loos too? Or do they have to use the disabled loo, or some third toilet arrangement almost as if they are a third sex.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Then presented with the cases of dsds you tell us that they are also just male or female.

They are, because there is no 3rd sex.

Even people born with a vagina and raised as girls you assert are men. There's quite a few women born with dsds who don't even know they have one. They only find out when investigated for infertility or want to compete in high level sport.

They are men. Men with dsds, often with ambiguous genitalia that in countries with poor ante natal care has led them to be recorded as female at birth. They were never women.

Do you want these women banned from public loos too? Or do they have to use the disabled loo, or some third toilet arrangement almost as if they are a third sex.

Most people with dsd's are unambiguously, very clearly either male or female. The ones who have been inaccurately recorded at birth- eg some boys with 5 ard - become apparent at puberty.

The only reason you involve people with dsd's in this discussion is to appropriate their medical condition as an argument to support getting men who don't have a medical condition into women's spaces.

 

[classic33]

They are, because there is no 3rd sex.


They are men. Men with dsds, often with ambiguous genitalia that in countries with poor ante natal care has led them to be recorded as female at birth. They were never women.



Most people with dsd's are unambiguously, very clearly either male or female. The ones who have been inaccurately recorded at birth- eg some boys with 5 ard - become apparent at puberty.

The only reason you involve people with dsd's in this discussion is to appropriate their medical condition as an argument to support getting men who don't have a medical condition into women's spaces.

Why did you start using these same people, to prove your argument in your favour. Saying it was unfair/degrading treatment?

 

[monkers]

They are, because there is no 3rd sex.

People are the sex they say they are, and it's important.

The Supreme Court heard a journey into the hypotheticals and outlier cases such as 'pregnant man'. Crawford for Scottish Ministers rather embarrassingly got herself into difficulties just before lunch and was unable to resolve after lunch. Had Dr Victoria Mcloud been permitted to speak - she applied but was denied - she would have settled the supposed difficulty with ease. The gender identity of the new parent is disapplied under the act ...

12Parenthood​

The fact that a person’s gender has become the acquired gender under this Act does not affect the status of the person as the father or mother of a child.

There was a case of a trans man (probably the same case) where the new parent wished to be identified as the 'father' of the child. The court upheld the GRA. The birth certificate reads 'mother'. It can be readily understood the court upheld what parliament had clearly intended.

If we now journey into outlier cases I'll ask you to consider the following because we've seen that you love an outlier case ...

Boy meets girl. Boy and girl fall in love. Boy and girl marry in church. Boy and girl try to bake a baby.

They fail. Fertility testing shows that she has a dsd- one which you say makes her 'a man'. Both are shall we say 'somewhat surprised'.

But they have been married in church, what shall we do? They wish to continue to be together in their marriage.

What shall we do? Convert their marriage to a same sex marriage? Oh wait, the CofE doesn't perform same-sex marriages. Quick jail the vicar. No? Do we forcibly annul their marriage? Yes, because that is the only logical conclusion based on the science - under the law according to AuroraSaab. But wouldn't this be beyond insulting right? mmmmm,- scratches chin.

And in the future all people must undergo testing before they marry, no let's make that date, make that attend a single sex school, make that go for a pee, make that get a birth certificate, make that in utero.

You could try listening to a sage such as Tony Blair. Tony Blair has convinced Keir Starmer that only men have a penis, and only women have a vagina, so that's it settled then? And I dare say that Karen Joanne Rowling will be made happy too.

Science didn't end at SAT level 1.

 

[classic33]

People are the sex they say they are, and it's important.

The Supreme Court heard a journey into the hypotheticals and outlier cases such as 'pregnant man'. Crawford for Scottish Ministers rather embarrassingly got herself into difficulties just before lunch and was unable to resolve after lunch. Had Dr Victoria Mcloud been permitted to speak - she applied but was denied - she would have settled the supposed difficulty with ease. The gender identity of the new parent is disapplied under the act ...



There was a case of a trans man (probably the same case) where the new parent wished to be identified as the 'father' of the child. The court upheld the GRA. The birth certificate reads 'mother'. It can be readily understood the court upheld what parliament had clearly intended.

If we now journey into outlier cases I'll ask you to consider the following because we've seen that you love an outlier case ...

Boy meets girl. Boy and girl fall in love. Boy and girl marry in church. Boy and girl try to bake a baby.

They fail. Fertility testing shows that she has a dsd- one which you say makes her 'a man'. Both are shall we say 'somewhat surprised'.

But they have been married in church, what shall we do? They wish to continue to be together in their marriage.

What shall we do? Convert their marriage to a same sex marriage? Oh wait, the CofE doesn't perform same-sex marriages. Quick jail the vicar. No? Do we forcibly annul their marriage? Yes, because that is the only logical conclusion based on the science - under the law according to AuroraSaab. But wouldn't this be beyond insulting right? mmmmm,- scratches chin.

And in the future all people must undergo testing before they marry, no let's make that date, make that attend a single sex school, make that go for a pee, make that get a birth certificate, make that in utero.

You could try listening to a sage such as Tony Blair. Tony Blair has convinced Keir Starmer that only men have a penis, and only women have a vagina, so that's it settled then? And I dare say that Karen Joanne Rowling will be made happy too.

Science didn't end at SAT level 1.B

Whole new meaning to "a bun in the oven".

 

[monkers]

Whole new meaning to "a bun in the oven".

Yes, same metaphor. Baking a baby is a miracle. Only God can perform miracles: therefore every man is Jesus and every woman is Mary (from the AuroraSaab school of logic).

Conceiving a child is child's play; school children do it all the time without formal instruction.

 

[winjim]

There was a case of a trans man (probably the same case) where the new parent wished to be identified as the 'father' of the child. The court upheld the GRA. The birth certificate reads 'mother'. It can be readily understood the court upheld what parliament had clearly intended.

Parenthood is an interesting one. I see no inherent contradiction in a trans man being both a mother (person who has given birth) and a father (masculine role model who raises a child). I wish we could move to a state where trans men were comfortable identifying as mothers and didn't feel it encroached on their sense of self.

Simplify things to a cis het case. A woman gives birth to a child, abandons them to be raised by another woman. Who is the mother? The child addresses the second woman as 'mum' and is estranged from the first. Both women are mothers, in different senses of the word. Then think of same sex couples. Two mums, two dads, regardless of who actually carried the child or provided the sperm. Adoption, surrogacy, all situations which complicate parental identity and not even necessarily involving trans people.

Mother, father, parent, all have different meanings based on context and all can be verbs as well as nouns.

 

[C R]

What sex do you think people with dsd's are?

Nobody is between the sexes. Every mamal is either male or female. There are male disorders of sexual development and female disorders of sexual development. Just because a child is born with ambiguous genitalia or different congenital secondary characteristics due to genetic abnormalities, it does not make them the opposite sex or a mixture of both sexes.

It would be pretty heartless for example to tell someone with Turner syndrome they weren't a woman but were some kind of in between sex.

There are more intersex types than DSD, "biological sex" is nowhere near as clear cut as you seem to think.

 

[monkers]

Parenthood is an interesting one. I see no inherent contradiction in a trans man being both a mother (person who has given birth) and a father (masculine role model who raises a child). I wish we could move to a state where trans men were comfortable identifying as mothers and didn't feel it encroached on their sense of self.

Simplify things to a cis het case. A woman gives birth to a child, abandons them to be raised by another woman. Who is the mother? The child addresses the second woman as 'mum' and is estranged from the first. Both women are mothers, in different senses of the word. Then think of same sex couples. Two mums, two dads, regardless of who actually carried the child or provided the sperm. Adoption, surrogacy, all situations which complicate parental identity and not even necessarily involving trans people.

Mother, father, parent, all have different meanings based on context and all can be verbs as well as nouns.

Thanks for this.

As a matter of opinion on what may be called a philosophical question I'm inclined to agree with you. But my opinion is not the law.

The statute doesn't take the trouble to differentiate between a child born to a trans man before or after the granting of the GRC. So questions arise. Before attempting to answer the question, it's important to note that the matter has been considered by the court. Whether that could change on appeal is perhaps an open-ended question.

The only disapplications to do with contemporaneous and historic events that I notice are to be seen in Section 20. I'll not quote it due to its length, but this only seems to be concerned with gender specific offences, so does not apply.

As a matter of law, the court seem to have the judgement correct. I'd prefer it if it was other - that it is a matter for the parent to decide.

Ultimately perhpas, the consideration is examination under the Children's Act, which rests on the overarching principle that 'the welfare of the child shall be paramount'.

 

[monkers]

Think i saw him on a Gazelle with suspension saddle upright position all that good stuff, but i could be wrong, you can ask him but he charges quite the premium. (link https://www.cameo.com/thejesuschris...-gMDkjk3JRCDArfHoq5vpKfmXxRMqOh64laemj3hqWctK no i'm not getting payed for it jesus doesn't share)
Maybe his Video's sell so well where all correct and he has Cross, Gazelle, Trek and Cannondale

Sorry, your content was too Specialized.

When somebody with the name 'Rusty Nails' stated that Jesus was on a 'Cross', I had to give them the comedy prize. Better luck next time.

 

[the snail]

...I was not surprised to hear Lord Reed say something...

I misread that as Lou Reed. Hey babe, take a walk on the wild side...

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why did you start using these same people, to prove your argument in your favour. Saying it was unfair/degrading treatment?

I didn't. CR introduced it into this thread.

What does a girl going to dr at 15 because her periods haven't started, then finding out she has a previously undiagnosed dsd, have to do with a 50 year old man deciding he is now a woman and demanding access to women's spaces? Absolutely nothing. But the existence of the first is being used by people on here to pretend the second is somehow a woman and should be in their spaces.

People are the sex they say they are, and it's important.

Are they the height they say they are? Or the age?

Of course not. Your sex exists independently of what you say it is or wish it to be. It's fantasy to pretend otherwise.

And in certain situations it's very important and relevant what your sex, or the sex of others, is.

There are more intersex types than DSD, "biological sex" is nowhere near as clear cut as you seem to think.

Are there? Can you name an intersex condition that isn't a dsd? * In humans obviously. Evolution in mamals seems pretty clear cut. Two reproductive pathways; 2 sexes with a tiny number of medical conditions that are variations within that binary.

* And I don't mean from activist groups who claim Intersex is an identity based on lived experience not an actual biological basis.