What is a woman?

  • Thread starter "slow horse" aka "another sam"
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The Equality Act didn't define it as biological sex just as no other legislation says 'biological sex' when talking about men or women. That's because until very recently it was taken as read that that's what it meant. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest that any legislation of the last decade that doesn't say 'biological women' actually means 'women but some men as well'.

I find it a bit tiresome that you keep retconning what you imagine occurred in other threads, all through the lens of your own arrogance as you imagine yourself as the great debater. I admire your self belief.

If the ruling goes against For Women Scotland all it means is that the law will look even more muddy and confused than it does now. There will be many issues to sort out.

And you will still be the same sex as the day you were born, just like me, just like everybody else. No £5 certificate in a cupboard at home will ever change that.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
What you mean is that for a long time you mistakenly took it to mean biological sex.

Now you seem unable to acknowledge your mistakes.

We'll have to wait for the judgement to see who is right. In the meantime save a bit of space for a large helping of humble pie.
 
Lol. You're so pompous and arrogant it just makes me laugh. Whatever the outcome, born male you'll still be a man. Material reality won't have changed one bit.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Lol. You're so pompous and arrogant it just makes me laugh. Whatever the outcome, born male you'll still be a man. Material reality won't have changed one bit.

You'll still be a liar and dogmatic. Why are you saying that I'll still be a man? Is that your view of lesbian women? Lesbian couples get that quite a lot ''which of you is the man''. What incredible stupidity.
 
Hence, it's extremely important what is meant by the words man and woman.
According to the dictionary, a man is “an adult who lives and identifies as male though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth”. Whereas, a woman is “an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth”.
 

matticus

Guru
According to the dictionary, a man is “an adult who lives and identifies as male though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth”. Whereas, a woman is “an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth”.

Would you like to bet whether the nearest paper dictionary to either of us says that?
 

icowden

Squire
To remind this thread began on that same premise, that the law says that only biological women are women and that the matter is in the hands of the Supreme Court to decide.

Now we here the dogma justified as 'because I don't like it'.
Surely the overriding issue is about safety and control. Correct me if I am wrong here, but currently in the UK you can't just get a GRC. You have to provide medical reports from two different medical professionals and evidence that you have been living as your new gender for 2 years or more.

Now I believe that there are campaigners that want to get rid of this safeguarding. At present biological women are safeguarded to a reasonably high degree as obtaining a GRC is not simple or easy and the process ensures that only those who genuinely suffer gender dysphoria and for whom the only solution to their mental health struggles is to pretend to be a different gender can do this and legally present themselves as that chosen gender.

At the same time, there are campaigns to remove the medical requirement and reduce the 2 year period living in your new gender to a much shorter period. That appears to be somewhat incompatible with the idea of safeguarding women.

As has been pointed out in the long running gender thread, it's a complicated subject and many people question whether the approach is sensible given that this issue affects a relatively small number of people. If we flip it on its head, what does the legal definition do for transmen and women that they are currently being affected by?
 

icowden

Squire
According to the dictionary, a man is “an adult who lives and identifies as male though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth”. Whereas, a woman is “an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth”.

You do know that there is more than one dictionary right?

Google defines man as "an adult male human being", or "a human being of either sex, a person" (as in goodwill to all men).
Merriam Webster goes with "individual human esp. an adult male human" or "a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership - usually used in combination e.g. councilman"

Now if we take "male" we get "of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring." from google. From cambridge we get "belonging or relating to the sex that fertilizes eggs, and does not produce babies or eggs itself".

So however you want to characterise it, it does tend to come down to whether you produce spermatozoa or whether you can grow babies to maturity. Some definitions characterise male also as being any device which contains a prong or pole which can be inserted into a socket.

If you travel further down the rabbit hole you then get to how we define sex which is based solely on chromosomes. If you have a Y chromosome then you are male sex and can produce sperm, if you don't you can produce eggs and can grow babies. However, as has been noted, nature doesn't keep things cleanly divided into categories and you do get offspring of all species where the DNA pattern is malformed and unusual things happen - so you do get people who appear to be female, who have female looking genitalia but who are genetically male (for example).

Final point - the dictionary is concerned with how words are used and how their current form has developed over time. They don't set down rules as to how words can be used, they only tell you how people are currently using them and how they were used in the past.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Surely the overriding issue is about safety and control. Correct me if I am wrong here, but currently in the UK you can't just get a GRC. You have to provide medical reports from two different medical professionals and evidence that you have been living as your new gender for 2 years or more.

Now I believe that there are campaigners that want to get rid of this safeguarding. At present biological women are safeguarded to a reasonably high degree as obtaining a GRC is not simple or easy and the process ensures that only those who genuinely suffer gender dysphoria and for whom the only solution to their mental health struggles is to pretend to be a different gender can do this and legally present themselves as that chosen gender.

At the same time, there are campaigns to remove the medical requirement and reduce the 2 year period living in your new gender to a much shorter period. That appears to be somewhat incompatible with the idea of safeguarding women.

As has been pointed out in the long running gender thread, it's a complicated subject and many people question whether the approach is sensible givP1en that this issue affects a relatively small number of people. If we flip it on its head, what does the legal definition do for transmen and women that they are currently being affected by?

P1 Correct.

P2 Not quite correct. The GRA contains the promise of adequate resources. I acknowledge that the level of demand increased, but that does not remove the promise. One can accept that funding can take a year or two to catch up with demand, but one has to remember that this promise comes from law made to satisfy the directive of the ECtHR. The Blair government defended that action, and Blair himself was know to have a strong opinion and opposition to accepting the directive.

The rights of individuals to trans healthcare have diminished to be tantamount to nothing with waiting lists for even a first appointment now at something like seven years.

Campaigners want this issue resolved. Two all party parliamentary select committees were convened to consider the problems. Their decision may rest on a number of factors and opinions; however one primary consideration was the cost to the taxpayer of fulfilling that promise, and after consideration decided that self-Id would reduce the cost to the state. To be honest while that decision was taken as favourable by many, it smacked of the usual thinking, that cost savings were king. As it happened Theresa May accepted the recommendations and promised to implement them, but then the ever opportunist Johnson managed to get her removed to his advantage.

P3 Despite penis panic, there isn't the evidence that trans women become offenders enabled by a GRC. There is some evidence that some people have claimed to be trans once caught for offences. The important point is that they don't have a GRC. Section 20 of the GRA deals with this. In these circumstances of gender specific offences, there is disapplication of the 'for all purposes' clause even for those with a GRC.

The number of trans women with a GRC in prison is thought to be a maximum of 4 from the available data. They have been risk-assessed, are accommodated in the female prison estate without incidents of harm being recorded.

P4 The small number of people is used to argue both ways by the same campaigners. Too few to qualify for human rights while being too many for women to feel safe.

The number of GRCs issued is some number between 8000 and 8500. This number includes trans men and trans women. The number of trans women with a GRC is likely to a number in the magnitude of say 4500 to 5000. Of these 4 are serving prison sentences for undisclosed offences. Hence there is little evidence to support the wild claims that women's prisons are overrun with trans women. Further there is zero evidence in the bogus claim that men transition with a GRC to get access to women.

It's simply inconceivable that men would either subject their bits to atrophy or go through surgery to sexually assault women. It is a nonsensical argument.

Also examination of the result of self-id in other countries does not show a harmful effect. What has been proposed in Scotland was not a system of instant self-id without checks or with the opportunity to just decide on different days what sex /gender you would be presenting. The one day Arthur, next day Martha narrative was designed to be destructive without containing any truth.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
You do know that there is more than one dictionary right?

Google defines man as "an adult male human being", or "a human being of either sex, a person" (as in goodwill to all men).
Merriam Webster goes with "individual human esp. an adult male human" or "a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership - usually used in combination e.g. councilman"

Language is dynamic. It changes through usage, nice used to mean nasty, and now the young folk use nasty or sick to mean good.

More than that, when the law gives definition to a word, there's no point in looking back to an old paper dictionary to try to disprove what modern law has given us.

In modern usage the words sex and gender have evolved with the greater understanding we have developed, and of course whatever the law now says.
 
OP
OP
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"slow horse" aka "another sam"

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"Can I view X/Twitter without an account? No—you must have an account to view tweets on X. As of July 2, 2023, tweet previews will be hidden when sent to other platforms such as Discord or Messenger. If you click on a link sent to you by a friend, you'll be redirected to X's log in and sign-up page."
I was talking specifically about videos in tweets. Go ahead, click the arrow and see. NSFW.


View: https://x.com/marycatedelvey/status/1860384194351812937
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
Words are tools we use to aid in communication and dictionaries describe how they are used. They have no inherent meaning and no immutable definitions.

This is basic stuff. It's why we need glossaries and footnotes and complicated legal prose and lawyers and judges to interpet it.
 

Ian H

Legendary Member
Words are tools we use to aid in communication and dictionaries describe how they are used. They have no inherent meaning and no immutable definitions.

This is basic stuff. It's why we need glossaries and footnotes and complicated legal prose and lawyers and judges to interpet it.

And regular updates to dictionary definitions.
 
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