What is the point of prison?

[Cirrus]

Sounds about right, unfortunately the money isn't there to rehabilitate these people. My lad often has 2 Officers to 60 cons, what are they supposed to do?

Plus in this day and age the law is always on their side so they have to treat them with kid gloves but this is what you lot want right?

One of my daughter's friends went into the service from uni, she left pretty quickly to go into teaching, as you allude to, staffing levels are inadequate to the extent that both officers and Inmates are unsafe.

Difficult, if not impossible to rehabilitate if there isn't enough to money to staff adequately.

 

[newfhouse]

Sounds about right, unfortunately the money isn't there to rehabilitate these people. My lad often has 2 Officers to 60 cons, what are they supposed to do?

You voted Tory. Stop whining.

 

[Archie_tect]

Until all services are adequately funded every aspect of life in the UK will continue to worsen. Like climate change the tipping point for social care, Probation, and the NHS may already have passed- there aren't enough qualified people, being paid enough, to make the systems work.

There is one reason why and one reason only.

 

[BoldonLad]

Until all services are adequately funded every aspect of life in the UK will continue to worsen. Like climate change the tipping point for social care, Probation, and the NHS may already have passed- there aren't enough qualified people, being paid enough, to make the systems work.

There is one reason why and one reason only.

I do hope it is that simple

 

[Archie_tect]

I do hope it is that simple

We all know it isn't BL... it used to used to be, within our own lifetimes, but, particularly for the last 11 years the slow assault on manpower, education and the 'brain drain' effect of the austerity years and Tory policies means the infrastructure of the social care system, the NHS and Probation Services has been de-skilled, undermined and unpicked...

The signs of melt-down have been there for all to see, fed by brexit fever, masked by Covid.

 

[icowden]

I've said this before, but the reason for Prison is based on the type of justice model that a country uses. In the USA, which has the highest incarceration rate in the world, justice is largely punitive. If this model were any good, then they would not have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Once you are in the prison system over there it's incredibly difficult to leave it.

In the UK, we have a restorative justice model(ish) although the longer we have people like Priti Patel in charge, the more punitive it becomes. Hence the Daily Fail and Tories calling for "tougher prison sentences" - they know it sits well with voters.

A good example of restorative justice is Portugal who decriminalised drugs in favour of treating drug addicts (drug dealers still go to prison).

They also found a huge reduction in social costs and HIV diagnoses, thus saving money on healthcare and courts.
Personally I favour a restorative model where only the truly dangerous remain incarcerated and those that can be turned round to being useful members of society are helped. Whilst grieving relatives want dangerous drivers to go to prison for life, I'd rather that they were tagged, working and part of their income used for good (e.g. a fund to help grieving families). I don't see how a roof over your head and 3 meals a day in a low security prison is going to achieve much except cost the taxpayer money which could be spent on the NHS or the Justice system, or improved services to reduce reoffending.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Interestingly the worry about an increase in drug use doesn't seem to have materialised:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago-and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-overdosing-10301780.html?amp

I'm not wholly convinced about decriminalisation of drug use, though it seems 15% of UK prisoners are in for drug offences so it would reduce the burden on the system.

It does come down to money in the end, and the will to implement policies that address wider issues. I'm not particularly a Blair fan but Sure Start was a great, and fairly cheap, idea. It's a small minority of families who take up a huge amount of police, schools, and social services, time and money, and early intervention helps a lot.

I don't think it's unreasonable that some crimes attract long sentences, especially violent crime. But you need to be doing something with them while they are in there.

 

[BoldonLad]

I've said this before, but the reason for Prison is based on the type of justice model that a country uses. In the USA, which has the highest incarceration rate in the world, justice is largely punitive. If this model were any good, then they would not have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Once you are in the prison system over there it's incredibly difficult to leave it.

In the UK, we have a restorative justice model(ish) although the longer we have people like Priti Patel in charge, the more punitive it becomes. Hence the Daily Fail and Tories calling for "tougher prison sentences" - they know it sits well with voters.

A good example of restorative justice is Portugal who decriminalised drugs in favour of treating drug addicts (drug dealers still go to prison).

View attachment 217
They also found a huge reduction in social costs and HIV diagnoses, thus saving money on healthcare and courts.
Personally I favour a restorative model where only the truly dangerous remain incarcerated and those that can be turned round to being useful members of society are helped. Whilst grieving relatives want dangerous drivers to go to prison for life, I'd rather that they were tagged, working and part of their income used for good (e.g. a fund to help grieving families). I don't see how a roof over your head and 3 meals a day in a low security prison is going to achieve much except cost the taxpayer money which could be spent on the NHS or the Justice system, or improved services to reduce reoffending.

Not sure how legalisation of drugs, morphs into changing the criminal justice system.

I do, however agree, legalising drugs would be a good move. Just treat drugs like alcohol and tobacco, stick a nice big tax on them, regulate the quality, and sell them through retail outlets.

 

[the snail]

...the USA, which has the highest incarceration rate in the world, justice is largely punitive. ...

A big part of the problem in the USA is that prisons are a huge money-spinner for corporations, so they end up with big vested interests lobbying for harsher penalties, together with polititians who use tougher penalties to curry favour with voters, so they end up wioth hugely bloated prison population, and the tax-payer picks up the bill. We seem to be going down a similar path, and the prisons are increasingly overcrowded and drug-riddled and violent, so any idea of rehabilitation is impossible.

 

[mudsticks]

A big part of the problem in the USA is that prisons are a huge money-spinner for corporations, so they end up with big vested interests lobbying for harsher penalties, together with polititians who use tougher penalties to curry favour with voters, so they end up wioth hugely bloated prison population, and the tax-payer picks up the bill. We seem to be going down a similar path, and the prisons are increasingly overcrowded and drug-riddled and violent, so any idea of rehabilitation is impossible.

Is it not the case also that quite a lot of manual labour for manufacturers in the US is done by no or low pay workers from the prison population.

So they too have a vested interest in a high prison population.

 

[Deleted member 28]

You voted Tory. Stop whining.

Whining?
I was answering a fella about rehabilitation, who's whining, he's there to keep the little s***s from coming round your houses and robbing you or nicking your car or selling your kid's drugs!

Most of these people can't be changed and don't want to be.

I know you like to have a pop at every opportunity but this one is a bit desperate!

 

[newfhouse]

Whining?

Yes.

unfortunately the money isn't there to rehabilitate these people. My lad often has 2 Officers to 60 cons, what are they supposed to do?

The lack of educational resources and opportunity, as well as the poor inmate to staff ratio is a choice made by the government that you voted for.

 

[mudsticks]

Whining?
I was answering a fella about rehabilitation, who's whining, he's there to keep the little s***s from coming round your houses and robbing you or nicking your car or selling your kid's drugs!

Most of these people can't be changed and don't want to be.

I know you like to have a pop at every opportunity but this one is a bit desperate!

A bit more intervention at the front end would be more useful right.?

Prevention better than cure and so on.

Schemes like 'Sure Start' such as @AuroraSaab mentioned, which the Tories closed down.

But that reached those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, who might statistically be more likely to end up getting into trouble.

Plus better funded social services, 'care services' social housing, and education..

Oh yes, all those things , which can make a difference got less funding under Tory austerity measures.

It's the same old story, short termism to cut costs at the front end , ends up costing more in the end .

And not just financially.

in the sum of human misery, whether for victims of crime, or those ending up criminalised.

 

[purpan]

Yeah, ruddy liberty having to wait for your easylife seeker claim to be processed.

All the guy's done is attempt mass murder, and what do we do?

Investigate him as a terrorist.

We should be building a memorial to him instead.

Whining?
I was answering a fella about rehabilitation, who's whining, he's there to keep the little s***s from coming round your houses and robbing you or nicking your car or selling your kid's drugs!

You’re absolutely right. Kids should sell their own drugs, not have little s***s doing it for them.

 

[Deleted member 28]

You’re absolutely right. Kids should sell their own drugs, not have little s***s doing it for them.

Side splitter, get me to A&E!