What is the point of prison?

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BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Has it ever been done in this country.....on a large scale?

That takes money and resources, and the will. I am not sure the current government particularly, or any government really, has put all those in place. There is still an element that believes tough conditions will cure all the problems.

Other countries, e.g. Norway, seem to make it work:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48885846
https://voxeu.org/article/incarceration-can-be-rehabilitative

There have been trials of different measures in parts of the UK, as this one in Durham"

"How should we treat convicted criminals? This is a matter of continuing public debate, and varies enormously across countries. Even within the so-called developed world, there are wide variations. The US, for example, imprisons more people per capita (over 700 per 100,000) than any other country in the world. At the other end of the spectrum are the Scandinavians. Norway, for example, has one of the lowest, at 66 per 100,000.

While the composition and severity of crime varies, the US and the Scandinavian model represent different philosophies. The US system focuses more on punishment, whereas the Scandinavian model emphasises rehabilitation: treatment and support aimed to help the offender become a law abiding member of society. This might include developing skills to improve employability or treating mental health problems, for example.

The UK falls somewhere in between these two models. Although it has the highest prison population per capita in western Europe, the country has experimented with initiatives aimed at diverting low level offenders away from prison.

One of the largest such schemes – Operation Checkpoint – is being run by Durham Constabulary. This “deferred prosecution scheme” allows offenders for certain types of relatively low harm offences (such as theft or criminal damage) to avoid prosecution if they participate in a programme that addresses their causes of offending – such as mental health issues or substance abuse. The first set of results from this programme, recently published, show a 15% reduction in reoffending rates when compared to similar offenders who did not participate.

A back of the envelope cost/benefit analysis suggests that the programme also represents good value for money, with the benefit to society from reduced re-offending estimated at £2 million against a cost of half a million for running the programme. Of course, while not every rehabilitation programme in the UK has been rigorously evaluated, these results are consistent with other evidence across England and Wales indicating that non-custodial alternatives can reduce crime."


Too often we in the UK are convinced that we know best, whereas in reality we suffer from the "not invented here" attitude to change. When prison does little to prevent re-offending just do the same again, but harder.

Very interesting. I am all for learning from schemes that work. However, ideas do not always transfer between cultures as hoped (think UK licensing laws and "cafe culture", as just one example). I live in hope, the eternal optimist ;)
 
It's a whole pile of stuff. It won't be solved just by chucking money at prisons. It's everything from early intervention, keeping dodgy kids in school and out of gang and drug culture, crappy parenting, changing attitudes to women, valuing vocational training not just academic work, support for addicts, training in prison .... the list is endless.

For many kids their cards are marked from day one and picking them up before they get settled in a life of crime saves us time and money later on. There's certainly a place for prisons as far as I'm concerned, but I'd rather we dealt with these people when they were just annoying little scrotes rather than when they actually become dangerous adults.
 

Archie_tect

Active Member
It's a whole pile of stuff. It won't be solved just by chucking money at prisons. It's everything from early intervention, keeping dodgy kids in school and out of gang and drug culture, crappy parenting, changing attitudes to women, valuing vocational training not just academic work, support for addicts, training in prison .... the list is endless.

For many kids their cards are marked from day one and picking them up before they get settled in a life of crime saves us time and money later on. There's certainly a place for prisons as far as I'm concerned, but I'd rather we dealt with these people when they were just annoying little scrotes rather than when they actually become dangerous adults.
Brings us neatly back to education ... and the lack of resources. See, it always comes back to funding.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
It's a whole pile of stuff. It won't be solved just by chucking money at prisons. It's everything from early intervention, keeping dodgy kids in school and out of gang and drug culture, crappy parenting, changing attitudes to women, valuing vocational training not just academic work, support for addicts, training in prison .... the list is endless.

For many kids their cards are marked from day one and picking them up before they get settled in a life of crime saves us time and money later on. There's certainly a place for prisons as far as I'm concerned, but I'd rather we dealt with these people when they were just annoying little scrotes rather than when they actually become dangerous adults.

Exactly.

But, dealt with how?, and, most difficult of all (IMHO) who decides what is good/acceptable/desirable?
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Very interesting. I am all for learning from schemes that work. However, ideas do not always transfer between cultures as hoped (think UK licensing laws and "cafe culture", as just one example). I live in hope, the eternal optimist ;)
True, but given the relatively high prison population and re-offending statistics in the UK our culture does not seem to deal with it very successfully so it might be worth giving new approaches a serious and large scale try rather than going round the same old tried, tested and failed route.
 

Archie_tect

Active Member
We have to accept that charities can't be expected to cover the gap in social care and support. left by under-resourced Councils and Care providers. That has to be paid for, there is no magic button that can reset the mistakes.
 
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swansonj

swansonj

Regular
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What I don't understand is why everything is someone else's fault, usually the Tories
...
Keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there😀
 
There's no endless money stream to fund all this though and as BL says it comes down to what your philosophy of the criminal justice system is. I would prefer prevention, but in reality I fall somewhere between rehabilitation and acknowledging the need for prison as punishment/deterrent/protection.

Better mental health services would help. Too often the police and prison staff end up being on the front line for dealing with people with serious psychological issues, when they should be the last resort.
 
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Archie_tect

Active Member
Of course there's a money stream to fund services adequately- it's called taxation, but it relies on political philosophy, priorities and social enterprise- something not practised for the last 11 years.

When you see billions being spent on 'priorities like Brexit, Trident, HS2, Serco Track and Trace, you realise that the poor and vulnerable are bottom of the heap- that's not a political philosophy I respect, that's not a realistic social care programme at all.
 
D

Deleted member 28

Guest
Yes, but there never used to be quite so many in the Cabinet.
Are you SO fixated with the Government you blame everything on them? I don't remember the World being much different when Labour were in last time, we had people in prison, we had terrorism, we had poverty or does it only happen under the Tories?
 

Pale Rider

Veteran
Brings us neatly back to education ... and the lack of resources. See, it always comes back to funding.

No it doesn't.

It always comes back to personal responsibility.

You can throw as much money as you like at someone, but them being minded to offend will trump every penny.

Spend some time in Bedlington Magistrates' Court.

You will see the same offenders, time and time again.

A hundred or more previous convictions no longer raises any eyebrows.

If you had a dog that won't stop biting people, ultimately you would put it down.

After every programme/probation order/community penalty has been tried many times and failed, the only realistic option is prison,
 
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OP
swansonj

swansonj

Regular
No it doesn't.

It always comes back to personal responsibility.

You can throw as much money as you like at someone, but them being minded to offend will trump every penny.

Spend some time in Bedlington Magistrates' Court.

You will see the same offenders, time and time again.

A hundred or more previous convictions no longer raises any eyebrows.

If you had a dog that won't stop biting people, ultimately you would put it down.

After every programme/probation order/community penalty has been tried many times and failed, the only realistic option is prison,
And does prison work any better than all those other tried-and-failed alternatives?
 
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