What % will keep driving cars instead of feed their families?

[qigong chimp]

realistically i don't see those who work in a busy manual handling warehouse that is probably built in green belt miles from town being in a rush to hop on a bicycle to work at 4am...

Especially with that fridge.
Perhaps permission to build a a busy manual handling warehouse in green belt miles from town should be conditional on Bezos springing for a works bus from town at the times it's needed.

 

[BoldonLad]

What % do you think?

The honest answer is: "I have no idea", but, if forced to guess, even with my cynical view of my fellow citizens, I would say < 10% of those who cannot afford to just absorb the increased cost of fuel, without starving their offspring and/or partner.

Having said that, judging by the size of some of the people I see in my day to day life, a bit of enforced starvation may not be a bad idea.

 

[mjr]

At least over on this side people can't go crying to Mommy and get things closed down. 🙄

Or, more usually, people can't start slinging insults around to get things closed down.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Or, more usually, people can't start slinging insults around to get things closed down.

Wanna bet, keep talking bollox and I'm sure I'll think of a few. 😉

 

[mjr]

I doubt many will choose to starve their children in order to take the Jag out for a Sunday afternoon jolly do you?

I doubt it, but DCLane certainly seemed to suggest that people would choose to use food banks in order to keep fuelling cars.

Sure, some may be in a position to walk and cycle, but realistically i don't see those who work in a busy manual handling warehouse that is probably built in green belt miles from town being in a rush to hop on a bicycle to work at 4am...

It was a 6am start not 4am and edge-of-city rather than green belt, but I did it when I was younger: 9 miles each way, says cycle.travel. My father rode his bike to work (8am start I think) for years. There are still noticeable surges of bikes at shift change on the edge-of-town industrial estates here, although there are of course many people driving one-per-car too these days. What is wrong with the bleeding snowflakes you see?

My concern is that the government will be pressured to reduce fuel duty.
And it has been frozen for at least the last 10 years, when it was supposed to rise above inflation every year.

The "fuel duty escalator" to help fund and encourage transition from oil to other fuels was introduced 1993 under John Major. Reduced to ride by inflation in 2000 under Blair/Brown. Scrapped in 2011 by Cameron/Clegg/Osborne and replaced by a "fuel duty stabiliser" which strangely didn't go up when oil fell to $40 a barrel in 2016 and, as you say, hasn't changed since 2012.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Do you think many people are going to choose fuelling their car over feeding their family, rather than ride a bike, walk or use public transport where some of the cost is paid from taxes?

Edit to add: and to be clear, I do not mean stopping the people who drive as part of work or live 40 miles away on a route not served by scheduled transport. I mean people who drive distances they could walk or ride and who still "go for a drive" as a leisure activity.

Bike or walk how far ? What’s an acceptable distance to do those activities for work purposes rather than drive ? What about those whom work two jobs , just for that extra cash or just to make life a bit easier ? There are plenty folk in that category?

I do agree with the point made elsewhere subsidised public transport could go some way to encourage less private car use day to day .

To be honest I’m neither of these folk above and cost is not going to be huge problem but I hate wasting money as well! So I’m back on my bike ! :-)


Ps just to add even driving my gas guzzler SUV into work and back is cheaper than the train still at current fuel prices ! You could argue that’s because fuel is too cheap or train is too expensive !

 

[mjr]

Bike or walk how far ?

It depends on the person and their ability. Maybe an hour's worth, like Michael "Charlie" Gove suggested was reasonable a few years ago?

If we really want to hurt Putin, maybe we should ban all private car journeys of 5-miles or less as a wartime measure? That would roughly halve the number of trips being made.

What’s an acceptable distance to do those activities for work purposes rather than drive ?

That depends on the work, but I wasn't addressing driving for work purposes, not least because presumably work pays for them, so it shouldn't cause a choice between feeding children and feeding the car.

What about those whom work two jobs , just for that extra cash or just to make life a bit easier ? There are plenty folk in that category?

Does working two jobs make you more likely to drive? Why?

[...]but I hate wasting money as well! So I’m back on my bike ! :-)

Ps just to add even driving my gas guzzler SUV into work and back is cheaper than the train still at current fuel prices ! You could argue that’s because fuel is too cheap or train is too expensive !

Probably a bit of both, plus as I wrote on the mothership, if you're like most motorists, you probably aren't accounting for the marginal costs of things like servicing and insurance, or your time effectively working at driving yourself when you could be reading a book or posting shoot on forums or whatever you do for fun.

 

[mudsticks]

It depends on the person and their ability. Maybe an hour's worth, like Michael "Charlie" Gove suggested was reasonable a few years ago?

If we really want to hurt Putin, maybe we should ban all private car journeys of 5-miles or less as a wartime measure? That would roughly halve the number of trips being made.


That depends on the work, but I wasn't addressing driving for work purposes, not least because presumably work pays for them, so it shouldn't cause a choice between feeding children and feeding the car.


Does working two jobs make you more likely to drive? Why?





Probably a bit of both, plus as I wrote on the mothership, if you're like most motorists, you probably aren't accounting for the marginal costs of things like servicing and insurance, or your time effectively working at driving yourself when you could be reading a book or posting shoot on forums or whatever you do for fun.

Theres definitely something in the mix about it being unfair on people who have to work longer hours to earn the same or less money having to cycle or walk too, on an already exhausting schedule.

Public transport needs to be cheaper than driving, in my area it works out about eight times more spendy..

And manual work tends to be less well paid..

My commute to work is very short, but some of the people who work for me can't afford to rent in this area, and have to commute by car.

But there's also downsides to working over the shop, you're never away from it unless you properly 'escape' - by train and bike of course .

Subsidised cargo bikes for in town tradespeople..
There was something about a cargo biking plumber in the paper the other day.

For those of us who have deliveries to make, then lecvy vehicles seem like the best medium term option..

One day I'd like to be rich enough to do deliveries by horse and cart

Private car use is already massively subsidised through the actions of government..
Those roads don't build and maintain themselves.
Plus the health costs, accidents, environment costs etc etc.

It's horrible to think that it takes a murderous despot to make us rethink our energy policy.

We should have been doing all that for 'sane' reasons decades ago..

 

[mudsticks]

Massively tax carbon - and then return that revenue directly back to the population - to stimulate take up of the alternatives and to make decarbonisation an affordable and just transition..

The clever bods at the IMF have even done the figures.

https://www.mic.com/impact/imf-proposes-global-carbon-tax-to-limit-emissions-19206884

Unfortunately oil corps currently have more political clout than number crunchers - or climate activists.

Could recent events tip the balance the other way ??

 

[winjim]

Smash. The. Patriarchy.

And I'm not even joking. I was discussing it with my wife today (of all days). We've been forced to adopt these societal, patriarchal norms of work and family so we have to conform to very narrow little expectations in our capitalist consumerist culture and it's not doing any of us any good. It affects everything, every part of our lives and our communities, including not least our dependency on personal transport with its myriad ills.

Only today, I saw a tweet from US Senator Elizabeth Warren* which said that in order to get the economy 'firing on all cylinders' they needed to make sure women could go back to work, so childcare should be affordable.

Bollocks. While I agree that childcare should be affordable, and also that childcare providers should be properly remunerated, how about we build an economy that isn't predicated on mothers having to work**, on children being denied that parental support and bonding, on pulling families apart and handing our kids over to strangers for 30hrs a week so we can drive our cars to work on the same roads at the same time as everyone else and still be unable to perform properly because of the stress and the guilt and the inadequacy we feel over the whole situation.

Smash the patriarchy, burn the MF to the ground and rebuild the whole thing as a better, fairer more equitable and less competitive society and we might be getting somewhere. Until then, all the bus routes in the world won't make a difference. The system is rotten and we all suffer because of it.


*I can't find it now, maybe she deleted it
**Choosing to, now there's a different matter, as long as it is a genuine choice and not one made as a result of societal coercion.

 

[mudsticks]

Smash. The. Patriarchy.

And I'm not even joking. I was discussing it with my wife today (of all days). We've been forced to adopt these societal, patriarchal norms of work and family so we have to conform to very narrow little expectations in our capitalist consumerist culture and it's not doing any of us any good. It affects everything, every part of our lives and our communities, including not least our dependency on personal transport with its myriad ills.

Only today, I saw a tweet from US Senator Elizabeth Warren* which said that in order to get the economy 'firing on all cylinders' they needed to make sure women could go back to work, so childcare should be affordable.

Bollocks. While I agree that childcare should be affordable, and also that childcare providers should be properly remunerated, how about we build an economy that isn't predicated on mothers having to work**, on children being denied that parental support and bonding, on pulling families apart and handing our kids over to strangers for 30hrs a week so we can drive our cars to work on the same roads at the same time as everyone else and still be unable to perform properly because of the stress and the guilt and the inadequacy we feel over the whole situation.

Smash the patriarchy, burn the MF to the ground and rebuild the whole thing as a better, fairer more equitable and less competitive society and we might be getting somewhere. Until then, all the bus routes in the world won't make a difference. The system is rotten and we all suffer because of it.


*I can't find it now, maybe she deleted it
**Choosing to, now there's a different matter, as long as it is a genuine choice and not one made as a result of societal coercion.

Absolutely - and stop worshipping overwork - we're supposed to be intelligent creatures yet still we pend many hours engaged in often pointless - miserable - or even destructive activities in order to be able to afford even the most modest of shelter -

Property capitalism / profiteering is a big part of the problem.

I kind of favour dismantling the patriachy rather than smashing it though ---
-- less sweeping up to do afterwards ..

Edit - equality of childcare / rearing options - between parents - like what the Scandi countries go in for would be my preference - a bit of both is a nice way to live - but its about having real options like you say ...

 

[slowmotion]

One of the wonderful things about human beings is that they do sometimes behave in ways that are not in their best interests. They piss their money away in pubs. They smoke cigarettes. They piss even more money away at the betting shop. They attempt to climb insanely dangerous mountains and often kill themselves in the process.
I'm not suggesting starving your kids due to your human frailty, but if we all behaved like complete saints, life wouldn't be very interesting, would it?

 

[qigong chimp]

One of the wonderful things about human beings is that they do sometimes behave in ways that are not in their best interests. They piss their money away in pubs. They smoke cigarettes. They piss even more money away at the betting shop. They attempt to climb insanely dangerous mountains and often kill themselves in the process.
I'm not suggesting starving your kids due to your human frailty, but if we all behaved like complete saints, life wouldn't be very interesting, would it?

Simone Weil would give you an argument:

“Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring.
Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.”

 

[slowmotion]

Simone Weil would give you an argument:

“Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring.
Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.”

Maybe Simone should have studied real people more closely.

 

[qigong chimp]

I think she was a real person.
Maybe people should study Simone more closely.
She had a great metaphor for your observation about sainthood being 'uninteresting'. Before I attempt a clumsy precis I'll have a look for the original..